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318 - Neverland


There's a lot to talk about this week with three really strong storylines: Dawson and Pacey go camping, and unsurprisingly, Pacey is unable to tell Dawson about his feelings for Joey. The girls also have a (stereotypical) night in where we focus a bit more on a forgotten piece of the love triangle/square/geometrical shape that no one seems to think too much about up front: how will Andie take the Pacey/Joey development?

From Traci: "In this week's episode, we bring you all the way back to season 1, episode 10 – 'Double Date' – and compare Joey's reaction to being unexpectedly kissed to her reaction in 3x17... and you'll hear it: the reaction is way different. It just shows how much has changed, of course, but listening to both clips side-by-side is really interesting and makes me understand more now why everyone was telling Joey she wouldn't have reacted so strongly (even if it was negatively) if she didn't feel something."

Also, Jack and Mr. McPhee have a major breakthrough in their relationship!

From Charles: "Something I forgot to mention in the pod that I want to bring up: I know Dawson's Creek is a show about the kids, but I'm having a lot of fun with a real parent-child storyline where both parties develop, even if it's only an episode long. We've seen this kind of thing before with Joey and her dad and especially Pacey and his, but in that later case, my read is Mr. Witter didn't feel the need to change until Pacey forced the issue by punching him. Mr. McPhee, on the other hand, came to the conclusion that something needed to happen apparently on his own. That's really exciting, and I hope we get to see some more Jack-Mr. McPhee in the future."

Episode links:


Got something to say? Leave it in the comments below, or you can email us at dawsonsspeakpod@gmail.com, call us at 732-98-CREEK, or find us at @dawsonsspeakpod on Twitter and Facebook.

Comments

  1. Traci and Charles, great ep! Nice job indeed ��

    Hallelujah! One more week until my favorite episode of the entire series 'Stolen Kisses'. The one that I counted down to when I started listening to this podcast which was only months ago but feels like 84 yrs getting to this one episode lol Watch there be some technical glitch that happens or my power goes out or a tree lands on... me. I will be beyond annoyed if something keeps me from hearing the next episode of this podcast (I'm side eyeing you, fate)

    Anyway, just a quick (aka long as heck) mention about the C storyline of Jack, Ethan and Mr McPhee. I never cared a hill of beans about it lmao I love Jack, he's my 3rd or 4th favorite character, depending on my Joey mood, but I started watching the show in 2000 at the age of 7 so I started watching around the time (fortunately for me) these streak of s3 episodes. I think my 1st ep was 'Cinderella Story' but my memory isn't 100% positive since I was only 7 but pretty sure it was. I just remember seeing Joshua Jackson for the first time and just feeling some type of way! I remember I did have a few crushes on boys my age back in my 7 yr old heyday but Joshua... he was big potatoes. The night sky parted and a ray of light shown down all around my television in my room that night LOL I didn't understand much but all I knew is that he liked Joey and darn it I wanted him to be happy. So, long story short, my love for the show is rooted in my 18 yr long adoration for Pacey/Joshua Jackson and to this day, my love for the show is not only because it's nostalgic but of course because of him so any storyline not involving him kind of makes my mind wander elsewhere and I'm usually like "Ok right but let's get back to Pacey" lol When I turned 12 and got a chance to rewatch the show from the beginning, I had a slight more appreciation for storylines that didn't involve Pacey but for the most part, my love for this show will always be connected to Pacey\JJ.

    As an adult watching the show, I have many frustrations about why the writers made some of the stuuupiiiidest choices they made through the course of the 6 seasons- especially seasons 5 and 6 ��, but I also am very touched by Jack's storyline and coming to terms with who he is. All of that to say, after hearing the discussion about the C storyline on your podcast, I feel bad now LOL I found it as just a plot that was in "my way" but I like the fact that you have brought another facet to that ep that I usually just watch with Pacey and Joey "shipping" eyes. I will now watch that episode with a newfound appreciate for Jack and Mr McPhee's relationship and won't skip through it like I have been so thanks guise!

    I cannot believe I wrote all of that just to say thanks but seriously, thank you for having that discussion and talking about that plot indepth like you did. ☺

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    1. As for Jen, I'm not entirely sure why many fans, so I've heard, hated Jen so much back in the day but as for me personally, I didn't dislike her but I didn't like her either. It was one of those things where she didn't bother me because I just didn't care. Wasn't until my teen yrs where I paid more attention and grew to love Jen as a character. My opinion on why: I blame half on the writers and half on that 90s mentality to slut shame. The writers made it clear they didn't know what to do with Jen after they squashed the Jen/Dawson/Joey triangle. Then they wrote her mostly separate from the core three. When they did focus on her, it was drilling into the viewers minds that she sleeps around, she did drugs and she's this outsider who came to town but doesn't really belong. Pacey could sleep with his teacher and it be a shrug and a "boys will be boys" way of thinking but a girl? Lord no! RME Back then, I think many young people still considered girls who unapologetically slept with different people, as dirty sluts lmao I mean, amirite? Nowadays it's much more openminded than it was then that a teenage girl who is old enough to know what she's getting into, has the right to sleep with who she wants to, as long as it's consensual and responsible. The slut stigma still does exist but it's much better than it was. Now that I'm older and have gotten a chance to watch many shows geared towards teens back then, television in the 90s just made sex into this dirty thing for a teenage girl and if she dared do it, she could get pregnant, an std or AIDS!!! "So do it at your own risk young lady! Muahahaha!"

      (Side note: I am aware of the Aids epidemic of the 80s and 90s and the focus on practicing safe sex so I am not belittling that Aids was a huge issue and they were right to educate teens about it) So anyway, I just think some people that watched the show couldn't get that invested in Jen because the writing isolated her and put her in a box while most likely her promiscuity made many look down on her. When you really strip all that away though I have to credit the writers at making her the one who was the most intuitive and the wisest in many cases, other than her own love life but that's another story for another day. lol The funny thing is, I didn't like any of her storylines in any season but she's my 2nd favorite DC character.

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  2. I don't remember how I felt about Jen in season 1 but I pretty much liked her from Season 2 forward, especially as she became the cool "voice of reason" character.. (or as Charles puts it, a sounding board!) I've always been a diehard P/J shipper so maybe that's why. Although I have to say I've felt after many, MANY rewatches (haha) I've come to the conclusion that the Jen/Jack "ship" doesn't get enough love by fans. Their friendship just gets better and better, and it is one of the few relationships on the show that stays consistent until the very end. Even going back and watching their interactions in Season 2 (like when they get set up or in the finale when Jen brings Jack home) is satisfying.

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    1. I think Jack and Jen get a lot of love but I think it may seem like they don't because the romances take center stage but I know a lot of people that love their friendship. In my opinion, even being the eternal Pacey/Joey fangirl that I've been for the last 18 years, Jack and Jen's friendship is the most stable lmao While they have their ups and downs as with an friendship, they really have the most stable and consistent relationship out of any other relationship that was written on the show. I introduced my 2 cousins to DC a few weeks ago, and while they too fell in love with PaJo, they absolutely gushed about Jack and Jen. They're adorable.

      As for Neverland, is anyone else confused about the timeline? In the previous ep, Pacey dropped Joey off at the train station presumably on a Friday, because Joey tells Pacey to have a good weekend before walking off. She stayed until the next night I think and then must've been very early Sunday morning when Pacey picked her up and then that kiss happens on the side of the road. That supposedly happens on Sunday correct? So then they show them in school which I thought was Monday because Andie asked Joey how her weekend was but then I remembered the scene before that Henry is telling Jen he has a birthday party the next day, which he was having when the girls were skating and Dawson, Pacey and the 3 little school kids were camping so the school scene had to have taken place on a Friday since there wasn't school the next day after the sleepover and camping thing right? So if a week was skipped then why did Andie ask Joey how her weekend was after a week has gone by? To make me even more confused, I recall Pacey telling Dawson when they got to the fort that he was asking for Deputy Doug's advice over breakfast just that morning but didn't that happen the day he kissed Joey??? I guess they could've had the sleepover, camping trip, birthday party on a Monday and it was like a teacher's work day so no school? lmao I mean I've confused myself trying to explain this but does anyone understand what I'm saying?

      Quick tidbit about Jonathan Lipnicki who played Buzz. He did an interview and said he auditioned for Dawson's Creek because his sister loved Joshua Jackson and she said to him "If you love me, you'll book this" because she wanted to meet Josh and when she finally got to meet him, Jonathan basically ratted her out to embarrass her... like adorable little brothers do lol Hey, it got her a hug on Valentine's Day so it ended up great! Source- https://tv.avclub.com/jonathan-lipnicki-on-jerry-maguire-meth-and-growing-u-1798245333

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  3. Hopefully this is the right place to post comments for the next episode...

    Thoughts re: stolen kisses:

    This is one of my favorite DC episodes. I say that a lot about this part of season 3, but this, the longest day, anti-prom, and the season finale are my top faves.

    First of all, I get what aunt Gwen was saying after she caught Pacey and Joey, to a point. She was right in that they should tell Dawson, and I like that she said she wouldn’t judge Joey (and when Joey tried to defend herself and say that kissing Pacey was a mistake, she said that Joey isn’t the kind of person who says kissing someone is a mistake - I might be remembering this wrong). I get too that she was probably only looking out for Dawson, and if she had left it at that, it would have been fine. But then Gwen starts trying to shove Dawson and Joey together after that, more than she was before, and it’s weird.

    But. Pacey. And. Joey. Kissed. Multiple times. The way he counted to ten before kissing her again. And he’s like “I can’t keep on kissing you. If you felt even one shred of what I feel for you, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.” And then she kissed him!!! She feels the same way!!!!

    Joey is my favorite - Pacey is a close second, but that’s more because I relate to Joey more in terms of her tomboyness and some family stuff. So it makes me really happy seeing my favorites get together and be happy and admit their feelings. (It may or may not crash and burn later but that’s later.)

    And! I can’t get a good look at her shirt, it’s covered up by the jean jacket, but it’s red and she’s wearing jeans. The same outfit she’s wearing when she (SPOILER ALERT) gets on the boat at the end of season 3, and I wonder if that’s intentional or if I’m reading way too much into things.

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    1. Whoops Sarah, they haven't watched Stolen Kisses yet, that's next week. lmao I guess it's ok because Traci monitors comments to keep spoilers from Charles so I don't think he reads these comments but not sure. I've been worried about tweeting them on twitter because I don't want Charles seeing my icon on twitter because it's kind of a spoiler of a future Pacey and Joey scene.

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    2. It's OK to post spoiler-y things here! Charles is so terrified of spoilers that he doesn't read the comments, but I share with him stuff he can see so he can reply :)

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    3. Oh no, I’m sorry! I figured that Traci was monitoring the internet stuff because Charles is so terrified of spoilers (and I thought someone else posted something about this episode on the last one).

      Anyway, I can use email next time if that’s better! I know Charles might not read these comments but others who are watching along with them might, I didn’t think about that until right now. :(

      Oooo Leslie what’s your icon? :)

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  4. LOL Same Leslie! My picture is of s4 P&J so I wigged out and told Traci not to let Charles see my tweet because of my icon. She assured me that she sends Charles stuff that's spoiler free so I think it's probably safe that Sarah is talking about SK here lol As for me, next week I'm definitely going to keep it short on here because I'm looking like a maniac with all of my long messages that look like short novels.

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    1. No please don’t, I love your comments!!! :)

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    2. Aw Sarah, you're such a sweetie! I appreciate that but I was looking at my comments on just this page alone and I was getting on my own nerves! LOL That's very nice of you to say. Love what you had to say about SK. My favorite ep with Cataways being a very close 2nd. :)) Hey, if you're on twitter, my username is @RachelMicelli93 I'm nutty so just a warning

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    3. Haha none of my irl friends watch DC, or they don’t remember it, so I appreciate these in-depth conversations!

      I love castaways!!! It’s def in my top 5. I wish PJo had gotten more screen time in the last couple seasons - I always did love their friendship, even before they were clearly headed towards something (like in s1).

      I’ll go follow you right now! I’m nutty too and I post about my favorite baseball team often, so this is your warning!

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  5. Sorry! I read up to Leslie's comment and then responded without looking at who else responded. (Siiigh)

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  6. I personally Couldn't care less about andie's reaction she cheated she lost all claims to pacey When she slept with that other guy. As for hating jen i was the same back then i was more interested with joey story of liking someone but that person doesn't see you in that way so i think alot of people understood joey alot more it wasn't until i was a adult and rewatched the show that i became a jen fan

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  7. I just read the Vanity Fair article and it’s so revealing! I can’t believe that Joshua Jackson and James weren’t getting along during the third season! That kind of worked very nicely into the script. Lmao. And I bring a huge YA fan I didn’t realize that Greg Berlanti is behind the movie Simon vs. the Homo sapiens agenda. I love that book so much and the movie is just perfection. That makes me love Greg Berlanti even more!

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