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414 - A Winter's Tale

First thing's first: sorry, we forgot the name of 3x17 - Cinderella Story. It's not Cinderella Tale.

Second: please don't hate us for being frustrated with parts of this episode :(

Third, from Charles: "Re: Jen’s clumsiness on the ice – There’s no reason for her not to be able to walk on ice! As someone who’s lived in New York for three years, you get really good at walking on snow that’s melted and frozen over again. I once slipped on some stairs while carrying food and taught myself without spilling anything. Capeside’s made Jen soft."

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  1. Hopefully this’ll post on my third attempt to comment. :)

    Would agree that Pacey and Joey courting were more exciting than them dating. Maybe it’s because like Charles said, there was this shining light on the horizon. When i rewatch Dawson’s, I like season 3 much more than season 4. Maybe that’s partially cause how the seasons ended, but they were much happier in season 3.

    Which, had I been watching when this was airing, I’d be upset, like after all this, the writers can’t just, like, let them be happy for even an episode?? Even the first episode of season 4, they had conflict right away when they got home.

    Btw - I didn’t watch this show when it aired, but I was around Pacey and Joey’s age when I watched for the first time, and I think I’ll always remember this episode just for the last couple minutes, even now as a 26 year old. It’s one of my favorite PJo scenes, and one of my favorite Dawson’s moments too.

    Having said that, I appreciate the Mr. Brooks storyline more now. It’s definitely not one of my favorite overall storylines, but I like that it makes Dawson more likeable, even more after the summer.

    And I agree about Joey. I love her and Pacey, but I too want better for her as an independent person.

    1. Yeah, I think when I first watched DC, I didn't appreciate the Brooks storyline enough, but doing this deep dive into Dawson's character has made me appreciate it way more.

  2. I have lots of thoughts so bear with me. I agree with you guys I prefer the Dawson storyline. If i watched this show when i was like a teen i might have preferred the Joey and Pacey stuff but it's too awkward, like the sex scene itself was awkward, but leading up to was cute. The entire thing felt so awkward to me, she was like do you still have your wallet condom and he was like yeah you want me to throw it away and she was like no I wanna throw the wrapper away. Very clumsy writing, otherwise it was fine. I agree with you Tracy though, my rewatch of One Tree Hill and The OC, change over time i started to identify with different characters each time. It will be interesting what happens when i finish Dawson creek and do a rewatch. Tracy this is for you but to all the boys I’ve loved before there is also a ski trip. My class went on multiple ski trip but i'm from Canada, like were close to Banff (Mountains), so that might be why. hopefully this makes sense.

    1. I think I'm just jealous because I never had a school ski trip lol :)

  3. I love you guys and I love the podcast, so I don't mean to offend as I know you said don't hate us for being frustrated, I just feel very passionate about the subject of Pacey and Joey and it makes me SO SAD when you talk about them negatively :'(

    It annoys me a lot too that Joey has to constantly get approval from Dawson when she does stuff, but it's like, have we not forgotten how he was at the end of Season 3? He made her feel like she was his property, had to have his approval, told her she was 'free' (vom) and now suddenly he is this mature Dawson and gets a free pass for it all?!? I'm not having it! I'm sure Joey hasn't forgotten this. She can't help but seek his approval because of how he acted and made her feel before, so she constantly feels guilty about enjoying her relationship with Pacey.

    Also, whilst it is a bit frustrating how they portray the PJ relationship - the argue then make up storyline in a lot of the episodes - I still think they do a really good job at portraying a real high school relationship, which would have constant bickering, ups and downs, going through huge transitions and life milestones together. I still think their make ups and sweet moments are better than any other relationship moments throughout the show.

    Anyway, I'll shut up now! Just to reiterate, love the podcast :)

    P.S I'm from the UK and there were ski trips to Europe in my senior (high) school. I didn't get to go on any of them though. Sad face.

    1. That's a fair critique! You're right: it's definitely a good portrayal of the ups and downs of a young relationship. We're definitely being hard on them because we want better for all of the characters haha.

      That's a good point, re: how Dawson treated Joey at the end of season 3. It's understandable she'd have some of those leftover feelings and thoughts in her brain. Even though Dawson has matured and changed, it's totally understandable why Joey would still feel like she needs to walk on eggshells around him.

    2. i agree with everything you've said, iwishicouldwink.

      plus i got the impression that dawson and joey didn't hang out much this season. so how would she know that he's changed as much as he actually has? she might think he'd still be mad about their (pacey and joey's) relationship and sex.

      dawson and joey's relationship is so unhealthy haha.

  4. Firstly I just wanted to say I really enjoy your podcast, I binged it in a couple of weeks, it's so lovely to have a community to rewatch one of my favourite shows. You and Charles are a delight to listen to :) I watched Dawson's Creek when it originally aired and i rewatch it every couple of years and my feelings have changed the older I have gotten. To be clear I am a huge Poey shipper :) I totally agree that the Pacey and Joey storyline in this episode was all i was really invested when i was a teenager, but the older I get the more the Mr Brooks storyline resonates. Poey are just always on the brink of destruction every week, it's too much for my heart :P Season 4 is tough for me to get through as I get so pumped at the end of season 3, their relationship seems so full of potential. It's really depressing that tv writers don't priortise showing well adjusted couples, i mean there's interesting stuff there. I always has to be drama! Michael Schur is the only creator that i think of does seem to write those kinds of couples who actually like each other and have fun together (from the tv i watch anyway :P ) aka Jake and Amy from B99 or Lesley and Ben. Off topic... i was going to ask as Charles mentioned he's watched Kimmy Schmidt, did you guys ever talk about the fact that Joshua Jackson cameos in that show in season 2 and talks about this specific episode? (also in case anyone hasn't seen it, he spoils a bit of the finale!)

  5. I know I’m late to the party, but I just discovered your podcast and I’m still catching up! Also, I grew up in NY and we took a couple of class ski trips upstate so that part feels believable.

    I’ve only seen the show as an adult, but I was not a fan of the Mr. Brooks storyline in this episode because I think it suggests that one's first love gets to have some sort of perpetual ownership over them (Andy Griffith says as much – and Ellie, of course, doesn’t get a say). It serves as a parallel to Dawson/Joey in order to assure the audience that despite what’s about to happen, Joey will forever be his in some sense – which feels like a dubious message in the context of both this episode and the show as a whole. Your reading of it is definitely a lot more charitable and made me consider a different perspective, but I'm still uneasy about this one.

  6. In Jersey we had a ski club... and a senior trip but it wasn't to a ski resort, it was at an amusement park


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