Skip to main content

609 - Everything Put Together Falls Apart

From Charles: "Stock broker bros. Stock brokers bros. Stock bros. Stock bro-kers."

That's all.

Episode links:

Got something to say? Leave it in the comments below, or you can email us at, call us at 732-98-CREEK, or find us at @dawsonsspeakpod on Twitter and Facebook.


  1. Does anybody else notice how Pacey gives these long, in depth over the top compliments and grand speeches of love for the women in his life? To later on just seem to fall out of it so quickly or lose interest. He did this with Andy constantly doting her with love and yes even though she cheated he was able to turn off so quickly. Joey, same thing, professing his love and fighting for her so hard then to just turn around and break up with her because she makes him like crap. Then poor Audry, he professes his to love her and how can even look passed her past. And then he completely loses interest and says he may never have even loved her. To me, Pacey is very extreme in his emotions one way or the other. Now here he is telling Emma she is the most beautiful woman in the room. OMG where is this coming from and why. Please don't make them an item!! He will just fall head over heels in love and then in a few episodes but like nah I'm good. Anyways, absolutley love you podcast. You guys have great chemistry and make LOL every episode. I wish you guys would do One Tree Hill next!!!

    1. Pacey does wax poetic, but I feel like this is paying off why Audrey didn’t want him to live with Emma in the first place (because she’s attractive and he would notice) and that’s pretty much what happens. Let’s just be glad for a soapy teen drama it happened after Paudrey broke up at least. To the Dawsons Speak episode talk, I found it realistic to think Pacey wanted to bring Emma to win the money, but he obviously had a “girl takes off her glasses” type of moment when she came out in that dress and he fell for her and they had a really good time together in between Rich acting like a jerk. So it at least made sense to me that Pacey/Emma built some chemistry, flirted and had a connection that led to a physical attraction. Also this would be a nice callback to the beginning of the series (i.e. seeing Joey changing then kissing her the very first when they went to the creek to get frogs or whatever) where Pacey realizes he’s been a platonic friend to a pretty girl and then tries to kiss her and make it something more.

      Also for the next study hall mentioned, you should let Charles update and have one more chance to predict where he sees the "big 6" cast members at the very end of the series.

    2. Pacey does love to make grand romantic statements/gestures. I think he’s the sort that fully means them at the time. He’s not being disingenuous. He just gets caught up before he can figure out what he actually wants/needs from a relationship.

  2. I read through those lists online when you talked about them, and just as a minor point of correction, #9 on the Worst Episodes list is 5.21 After Hours, so they're not ALL from season 6. What's really interesting is how many season 6 episodes ALSO appear in the Best Episodes list - taking out top spot overall is pretty impressive. Definitely speaks to how uneven that whole season was!

    The worst things each character has done in my opinion (I'm writing this in a hurry so may change my answers on later reflection):
    Mitch - throwing Gail out of the house in a hurricane
    Gail - cheating on Mitch
    Abby Morgan - her treatment of Andie during the student elections
    Andie - cheating on PACEY (nobody cares about the PSATs)
    Audrey - crashing into the house probably, I think I agree there
    Grams - throwing Jen out of the house for grieving inappropriately at Abby's funeral
    Jen - her relationship with Henry and how she got all jealous for NO reason (nothing else springs immediately to mind)
    Pacey - breaking up with Joey at prom, I agree with that one
    Joey - sending her dad to prison, but I hate the way she treats Jen throughout most of the show as well
    Jack - setting Audrey up as a free ride for his frat bros!
    Dawson - his emotional manipulation of Joey throughout the entire show, not just at the end of season 1 but also during season 3 when he refuses to let her be with Pacey and also be his friend, in season 4 when he asks whether or not she's slept with Pacey, in season 6 when he sleeps with her while he has a girlfriend, also attempting to guilt his mother into not having an abortion, just so many things I can't list them all in one place...

    1. Also don't forget when Dawson tried to kill Pacey in the boat race (which would have also wrecked his father's boat for the SECOND TIME THAT SEASON!) while he was doing the emotional manipulation of Joey. What a shitheel he was at the end of S3.

      IMO, the worst thing Jack did was to himself (drink too much after getting kicked out of the fraternity, end up on Spring Break maybe even being suicidal when Dawson had to talk him down). I didn't think the Audrey thing was THAT bad, what did Jack know about Audrey? That she liked to party and was open with her sexuality. So he set her up with guys who were the same. It doesn't age well when you grow up and his friends were definitely creeps.

      I'd say worst thing Jen did was be moody and disrespectful to Grams early on in the series. Maybe her worst moment was at Abby's funeral just to needle Grams and purposely say the meanest, most hurtful things possible, in a church setting no less. (Then triggering Grams' worst moment to kick her out). That's kinda fitting if those 2 are together.

    2. Andie- Making false accusations about the college guy forcing himself on her

      Joey-I think she was backed into a corner with her dad/prison situation. I would say the worst things she’s done is be possessive of Dawson when he got into a relationship with Gretchen. Also being a shitty friend to Jen and sometimes Audrey.

    3. Oh, correction, it was Andie's dad's boat the second time, but still..

    4. @Elliot - well we don't know for sure that she made false accusations. I'd prefer to think that she didn't. Perhaps they were both somewhat at fault. I don't think the show ever gives us a full answer to that, though.

      Dawson almost killing Pacey in the boat race was pretty horrific. Can definitely add that to the list of his transgressions.

      Joey's entire "romantic" relationship with Dawson is the worst, I agree. And yes, the way she was with Dawson/Gretchen was terrible. I wish the show had just let P/J be happy in season 4 and not constantly dragged Dawson back into it. Also, when she lied to Dawson about sleeping with Pacey. Ugh.

      And that's also fair re: Jen, good point. The Grams part always overshadows the Jen part for me in that storyline, because while Jen was horrible, she was in a very vulnerable emotional state, and Grams kicking her out was out of character and incredibly mean. Jen was being awful, but at least had the excuse of being a teen. Grams was supposed to be an upstanding Christian woman and didn't act like it at that time. (Fortunately that wore off and she went back to being amazing.) Grams is also super racist and judgemental in the season 1 "Baby" episode.

    5. I’ll have to rewatch the episode, so that I’m firmer on the details. The thing that clinched it for me that Andie was making the story up is the fact that she wouldn’t go to the police. Andie is not a wallflower and she definitely doesn’t seem the sort to let an attempted rape go. I suppose the flip side of the argument would be that if true this isn’t something that is easily prosecutable or even prosecutable since he didn’t rape her. In that case, she may not want the stress of going to the police.

      I had warmed up to Dawson starting in season four. Anonymous and Kate, you’ve come up with so many examples if Dawson’s shittiness that I’m starting to hate him again.

    6. @Kate - On Grams: she wasn't being "mean", she was incredibly hurt by Jen in the church who mocked God, which was a huge deal to her. Jen was out of control and Grams couldn't help her. I don't agree with her kicking Jen out, but Jen was nothing but petulant/disrespectful to Grams and just trying to make Grams want to quit on her, which sadly Grams eventually did.

      @Elliot - I agree with you, not 100% sure but I thought it strongly implied that Andie was lying about what he did because she wanted Pacey to be the white knight to save her yet again, and I think Joey kinda eventually saw through it and figured that out.

    7. Hmm, I agree that the show does imply that Andie made it up, but I guess I want to give her the benefit of the doubt on that one. My headcanon is that something happened, maybe it just went further than she was comfortable with and scared her in the moment, so she called Joey for help (note that she called Joey, not Pacey - and she didn't know that Pacey was with Joey at the time). If nothing happened other than she told him to stop and he didn't right away, but obviously did eventually, that's not really prosecutable. Also, I think that Andie would be reluctant to go to the police. She's not likely to want to drag her family into any of this situation, especially given her father's feelings about his kids doing ANYTHING that draws attention to their family (cf. Jack coming out). She is desperately trying to prove to everyone that she's fine and she wouldn't want the public attention. Also, "the police" in Capeside is essentially Pacey's dad and brother. That's a whole extra layer of drama to add into the situation. So I don't think it's out of character at all, especially given that she did say "nothing really happened". I don't think she was raped, but I think she got herself into a potentially dangerous situation and got scared. I've been there, and when it's your word against his, when alcohol is involved (she's also underage remember), and you weren't physically's not the kind of thing you take to the cops. It's the kind of situation you get out of as soon as you can and then try to move on from.

      Re: Grams - I get that she was hurt, but I still think throwing out a child who has already been thrown out of home by her parents for acting out is a shitty thing to do. She redeems herself pretty quickly though and overall is an MVP of the show. It's hard to be mad at Grams!

  3. The scene where Joey tells Eddie that she wants to fuck is the most that I’ve actually liked Joey in a long time. She’s just so earnest about it and it’s a nice bit of growth for her. In the past, she’s always been afraid of sex, so to show her being so sex positive makes me happy for her character.

    It’s all downhill after that. I’m on Hetson’s side as far as not letting her retake the test. I partially blame Joey’s high school teacher who let her retake a test back in season four for Joey’s attitude. Getting a D shouldn’t be that big of a deal. Assuming she got A’s in all her other classes, she should still end up with a 3 point something for the semester. I would think that would be good enough to keep her scholarship. Eddie was dead on that Joey was overreacting, but an idiot for calling melodramatic while she mid-rant. I guess they had to shoehorn a life lesson on growing up though. Next time Joey will know step one set an alarm, step two put on the condom, step three profit.

    Charles had commented that Joey tries to fix boys. I don’t think that’s true. Joey’s never tried to change any of her boyfriends. What’s been so annoying about Joey’s character is that she’s been presented as so wonderful that boys just want to change to be worthy of her.

    On the subject of tropes such Eddie, there was a thread on Reddit this week about “Books you thought we’re amazing....until you tried reading them again.” On The Road came up. Most of the redditors talked about how impressed they were with the book in their teens and early twenties, but as they got older they just couldn’t identify with the characters anymore. One redditor (starsinaparsec) commented “I reread it recently and all I could think is Dean should get a vasectomy and have his license revoked.” I really enjoyed the discussion about how perception changes with age.

    Last week, I was surprised that they were making the Dawson/Natasha relationship less romantic and more about only sex. This week with the introduction of Max Winter it makes a bit more sense to me. Perhaps the writers are trying to show Dawson facing the tribulations of Hollywood relationships. Obviously the stereotype is that Hollywood relationships don’t last and actors/actresses switch partners on every new set. This could be sort of shocking for a small town kid like Dawson.

    If the writers had wanted to go more soapy teen drama, they could have had Pacey invite Joey to the hot date contest. This could have set up a Pacey-Joey-Eddie triangle.

    Pacey gave Jack a bit of a run for his money in eating scenes. Pacey eating baby corn like it’s corn on the cob is just adorable.

  4. "Charles had commented that Joey tries to fix boys. I don’t think that’s true. Joey’s never tried to change any of her boyfriends. What’s been so annoying about Joey’s character is that she’s been presented as so wonderful that boys just want to change to be worthy of her."

    YES this. I was listening to this while driving and I was shouting out loud at Charles. Joey never tried to change Pacey, she was always accepting of him for who he was. That was one of the things that made them work as a couple, especially compared to Joey and Dawson, who were just obsessed with the idea of each other but could never live up to one another's expectations.

    I think Andie did more work on changing Pacey than Joey did. I think she expected more from him and he did his best to live up to that. Which I'm not saying was a bad thing, but could be that he went backwards (academically for example) when they broke up because he'd been trying to fit someone else's expectations of him, rather than following a path he genuinely wanted for himself. With Joey, he couldn't figure out how to be the version of himself that he thought would fit in with her college life.

    I think that Pacey as a character is always seeking approval of others, and he does have a track record of trying to be what other people want/expect him to be. Which might be why he's turning into such an asshole stockbro. It's a shame Rich and Danny are such shitty influences on him.

    (And that annoys me about Joey too. At least in seasons 3/4 she was exasperated by it and denied it. Seasons 5/6 she seems to accept it as her due. I mean, I guess she's been conditioned to believe it by this point, but it's not likeable. Stop it, writers.)

    1. Yes, poor Pacey had been sadly lacking in mentors who can steer him right

  5. Sorry for spamming but just listening to Dax Shepherd's podcast Armchair Expert and his latest guests are Kate & Oliver Hudson, who also have their own podcast Sibling Revelry.

    1. Did Oliver Hudson mention anything about his time on Dawson’s Creek.

    2. Sadly he did not. Very interesting podcast though.

  6. Just being sailing guy here: In no way, under no circumstances, could what Dawson did at the regatta be interpreted as 'trying to kill Pacey' -- it's like calling a fair tackle in football an attempted murder. Forcing the other boat to swerve is what you do in sailboat races - it's kind of the whole point. Under racing rules (but not normal sailing rules), Pacey did have the right to room at the buoy, but had Pacey not swerved to avoid the collision, he would have been guilty of breaking the rules and been DQed. And TBF, the 'room at the buoy' rule is a pretty complex one.
    Even if the boats had collided, odds of anyone being hurt are close to zero. Sailboats at full speed are doing maybe 6 or 7 mph. I've NEVER seen anyone hurt in a boat collision. (the boats can get pretty wrecked up, but the people - no.)

    1. I've seen you say this before but I have to disagree. Regardless of what being in a boat collison is like in real life, on a fictional tv show where the writing is structured for the sake of drama, the purpose for the whole boat thing was to create drama correct? So I'm sure the writers didn't research before they put it in the story to find out that nobody is hardly ever badly injured in a boat collision and then still decided to use it in the script. It was shown to show that Dawson was angry at Pacey and did not care if Pacey got hurt or not. Maybe he wasn't actually trying to kill him, but the intent by the writers was clear- Dawson couldn't care less what happened to Pacey at that point.

    2. Thanks Leslie, I agree. In the Dawson's world it's a bit more dramatic than reality (ha!)...And while it may not have been the most dangerous thing ever, it's more the intent that Dawson again was willing to destroy anything (his boat, Pacey's boat, risk injuring someone) to prove a point that he loved Joey more than anyone and was going to do whatever it took to win the race to prove it.

    3. @Anonymous - which, in itself, is seriously disturbing. Man, Dawson was a nightmare in season 3. His blatant refusal to adhere to the rules of sportsmanship and his utter disregard for other people's safety and personal property was an immense turn-off. I don't understand why Joey didn't just cut him loose at that point and good riddance. (Far better for her to turn her back on him and him have to win his way back into her good graces by becoming a better person than her moping around letting him get away with that shit before he finally "releases" her into Pacey's arms.)

  7. For me, I don't think I can pick the worst thing a character has done but the worst storylines the writers have created is more my cup of tea:

    1. Pacey's affair with the teacher still disturbs me and the fact they brought her back and made it seem like genuine romantic feelings between the two existed is just yuck.

    2. Joey/Dawson and that whole stupid relationship makes me want to lay my head in front of a car and run over it myself. I will never understand why that needed to be a thing? Why the writers insisted on it even after Pacey and Joey proved to be the preferred couple. It makes no sense!

    3. Never giving Jen anything better to do. She was never allowed to be happy. Ever. She was treated like a second class citizen because of Joey when Michelle was one of the leads. 90210 and Friends all gave their leads story. While 90210 may have focused on some characters more than others, none of them were treated like Jen Lindley. It's like the writers disliked her or something. The character was all about women empowerment but she never realized her own worth in the romantic department when chosing loser after loser imo.

    Jack was forgotten about also. His college frat boy storyline and how he treated everyone was so cringe.

    Dawson: Dawson only annoyed me to season five but his worst storyline is after he found out about Pacey and Joey's relationship. Who thought turning the show's title character into a manipulative and emotionally abusive jerk was great story telling? I'll never know. Same people who thought a dysfunctional and unhealthy codependent relationship between Joey and Dawson was romantic I guess?

    I didn't really care about any of the other characters but I really liked Gretchen and really wish they had kept her. Although she was too good for any of them haha

  8. Oh I forgot Joey! Haha For me there are a lot but I don't like her season six storyline with Pacey. (No spoilers for Charles or anyone else who has not seen the rest of SEASON SIX:)

    but I did not like Joey at all during this arc. As a Pacey and Joey enthusiast, maybe I'm biased but she just comes off as so wishy washy. I loved Castaways but after that, for me, it all goes down hill. She's unsure at first and I get that but then she seemed like she was all in, especially in her weird and annoying jealous behavior during Sex and Violence. Then Eddie returns and she tells eventually tells Pacey that it didn't feel right being with him yet it did feel right before Eddie came back? The whole thing was stupid in my book and just something to manipulate viewers at the time and yep I fell for it back in 2003. Come to think of it Joey (for me) became unlikable during season four. I did like her again during the show's finale. Ironically.

    1. @Leslie

      Pacey/Joey S6: while I think there are worse storylines for Joey (Prof. Wilder, for one) I agree with you that P/J season 6 was a mess, and Joey was pretty awful to Pacey during that whole storyline. I love Castaways (and also really enjoy the previous ep, Clean & Sober) but I loathe Sex and Violence, because she acts like a completely entitled brat during that entire episode. (Joey Potter and Rory Gilmore have a lot in common sometimes. What happened to the girl from the wrong side of the creek? She gets one scholarship and turns into a diva?) And the reason she gives him for their break-up is such bullshit.

      Poor Pacey. He's so hopeful, and she's so wishy-washy. There's even a line in the episode right after Castaways where Joey asks Pacey what he's afraid of, and he says "That the whole possibility thing is really just a mean trick." He tries to kiss her, and she turns away from him. Then she says she still has to think about them getting back together, and he says that she should probably go before he loses his ability to think clearly, and she says okay...then almost immediately says that she wants to stay for pizza. Even in Castaways, she snuggles up and kisses him, then says it doesn't mean what he thinks...she really toys with his emotions and I hate that.

      It's fortunate that the finale of the show is so strong. And I still love Castaways, despite its many flaws.

      I was reading an article the other day about P/J and they talked to Kevin Williamson - I'll just quote it here:

      After seeing the chemistry between the couples, Williamson decided that Pacey and Joey had to be paired together. But, he was very strategic about the way in which he went about it. “We all saw that and we were like, “OK, uh, [do we pair them up in] season three? Season two?!” The show was about the soul mate question of Dawson and Joey. We saw that chemistry between Katie and Josh and decided it would be the thing that breaks up Dawson and Joey and that it would come between Dawson and Pacey’s friendship. We wanted to be very careful not to sacrifice our characters. If the audience had turned against Joey or Pacey, I would have died. We had to be careful about when we did it,” the Dawson’s Creek creator confessed.

      Well they didn't sacrifice Joey and Pacey, but they sure as hell sacrificed Dawson! Yikes. (To be fair to him, KW wasn't working on the show at that time, but yikes.) The D/J relationship was always pretty toxic and only got worse as time went by. It would've been nice to see them actually act like friends at some stage, because there was ALWAYS this romantic entanglement between them with at least one of them pining after the other, and it became exhausting to watch, especially given the lack of chemistry between them. D/J fans make no sense to me.

      #JusticeforJen - honestly it's obscene how badly written Jen was. Poor Michelle Williams. Her relationships all sucked, her storylines all sucked because they were always about her relationships. They could've done so much more. If I was rewriting, I'd have had Jen spend the early seasons focusing on getting back to NYC, then gradually realising that she was happier in Capeside, and then becoming afraid to return to NYC and afraid to leave Capeside. The show did do this to a small extent but it was never fleshed out and seemed to come out of nowhere. She never had any ambition that we knew of, nothing she was working towards or aiming for. Even when she goes to college, we don't really know what she's studying. They could've done so much more with her radio show and work at The Stand as far as having her help people in crisis - especially interesting if she is really good at that yet somehow misses it when her best friend Jack is in crisis. So many possibilities, but the DC showrunners were all male and the storylines reflect that.

  9. Joey's "woe is me" act over failing her test because she was busy getting busy is probably the peak of my Joey hate. She just comes off as so entitled instead of taking responsibility for her mistake. I was firmly Team Hetson until he took his victory lap at Hell's Kitchen. Joey hasn't given him any reason to give her an exception, and she didn't have a valid reason for missing the test either.

    I will defend Joey, though, because it did remind me of when Paris Geller didn't get into Harvard on Gilmore Girls after she lost her virginity (not that it was directly related.) It just reminds me of how female characters used to be unnecessarily shamed for enjoying sex in teen dramas. Too bad the show couldn't let Joey get laid without consequence, like Dawson and Pacey constantly seem to.

    Onto Pacey and Emma, who are soooooooooooooooooooooo boring. Absolutely no chemistry. Jack had more chemistry with his burrito. I agree with the previous poster who said the story would have been more interesting if Pacey had taken Joey to the holiday party, and used that as a trigger to reignite his feelings and set up their upcoming (no spoilers for Charles) upcoming reunion arc.

    1. Emma is just the most annoying character. Or maybe it's just the accent. I can't really process anything she says or does because the accent just grates so hard against my ears that I tune her out.
      And YES to Pacey taking Joey to the party instead. Rather than trying to force a Pacey/Emma storyline that seemingly comes out of nowhere, it makes way more sense for him to ask Joey, because we know that if you ask Pacey who is the most beautiful woman that he knows, he's going to think of Joey. Although she would be so PISSED when she found out about the much if not more so than Emma. Especially if the event had triggered her feelings for Pacey again...even if she is still with Eddie. That would've been more interesting to watch for sure.

    2. Agree - Emma is insufferable. Goes back to the point another commenter made recently that in Season 6 the main characters keep getting paired with new characters who no-one cares about.

  10. Just watched the next ep Merry Mayhem and wow Charles is going to shit himself. Such a crazy one. I've watched S1-4 a bunch of times but never really watched S6 more than once so I forgot everything except (Pacey family unhappy with his wealth flaunting and dinner goes badly) did not recall nearly all the details of Audrey's spiral.

    Q for Traci: not sure if this is research-able or not but did they know by this point at taping that S6 would be the last? It was so nostalgic to see all the Capeside characters and it almost seemed like the start of a goodbye for a lot of them even on camera in the Christmas ep.

    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

    2. I'm pretty sure they knew, because IIRC the cast had only signed contracts up to season 6 and most if not all of them were ready to move on by the time they got there. But be interested to know for sure!


Post a Comment