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614 - Clean and Sober



It's time for a party! At least we get some screen time with each of the characters, although it would be nice to have stronger stories for Jack and Jen. But what's new...

Also, it is a little wild that this is Emma's last episode and she and Pacey have pretty much not spoken (that we know of) since their week at the aquarium. The lack of closure is so frustrating on this show sometimes (OK, most of the time) and it's apparently making Charles very unsure of how much to invest in relationships on this show...

From Traci: "In case anyone was wondering... I did get my FedEx package delivered."

Episode links:

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Comments

  1. While I always thought the writers waited too long to show Pacey never got over Joey into season six, I think their chemistry is so strong that for me they're able to pick up where they left off and it's not that far- fetched. Charles's comments this week were a bit baffling to me. Pacey's breakup "mourning" period (aka about three episodes) lasted the same for everybody except Audrey. He seemed to have gotten over her pretty quickly but that also is in line with him wondering if he even loved her at all. Plus Charles's scoring almost makes me not want to hear what he thinks of Castaways. He'll probably give it a 5.2 because of how unrealistic getting locked in a K-Mart all night is. Also I'm voting to kick Charles off of SS Poey lol

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    1. Yeah, I don't think any of Pacey's other relationships really need closure. The three great loves of his life were Tamara (which was gross, but she was a pivotal relationship for him), Andie, and Joey. And I think all of those relationships got proper closure except for Pacey and Joey. Even Pacey and Audrey kind of got closure when they tried getting back together at the concert, but their relationship was so shallow, and based almost entirely on sex, that there really wasn't anything to mourn. Although, I will admit, it would have been nice to get SOME closure on Pacey and Emma, since they spent several episodes this season trying to set them up, and in this episode, Pacey couldn't care less that she was about to marry some loser for a green card.

      As for next week's scoring, the goatee being slain has to garner it at least an 8.

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    2. I agree that Pacey had more closure in his previous relationships than he did with Joey, and as a viewer who hadn't been emotionally invested in the show since Poey ended, I don't care how abrupt or left-field this may have been or felt. I never felt as if Pacey got over Joey, so to me it was just like "oh FINALLY he's admitting it!" not "where did THAT come from?" I realise not everyone feels that way, and that some people watch Dawson's Creek for reasons other than Pacey/Joey, but those people are strangers to me.

      I am so excited for that goatee to be gone. I was in bed sick on Saturday afternoon and I went straight to "Castaways" as my 'feel good viewing' to cheer myself up. Worked like a charm, and that scene always makes me grin like a fool. (Lucky Charles getting to see it with the original music too - it was so nice to hear the actual music behind the final scene in Clean & Sober!)

      If Charles doesn't like Castaways, I vote we make him walk the plank.

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    3. I am SO GLAD someone other than me watches DC primarily for the Poey feels! I love other aspects of it, too, but yeah, PJo is a huge draw. (I don't like the last couple of seasons not just cause the Good Ship Poey is no longer sailing, for the most part, but it does affect my viewing of said seasons.)

      I haven't listened to the ep yet (but judging by some of the comments, it wasn't that great, esp for Charles?) but I did just rewatch the episode. I knew the SS Poey was getting ready to set sail again, obviously, and I am here for that. I never saw Pacey's feelings for Joey as coming out of left field, either, but more like "omg finally!" and the writers spent most of s5 pretending they didn't have a relationship, or acknowledging it, so it was nice to get this episode.

      cannot wait for traci and charles to get to the next episode! the Good Ship Poey is sailing, although who knows if the waters ahead will be clear or stormy?

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    4. There's another reason to watch DC? ;) I tend to rewatch seasons 3 and 4 up to the Prom episode, then jump all the way forward to 6.14. (Although I have a real soft spot for the Poey on the boat scene in 5.03. I still think that was the writers' attempt at closure, but there's so much chemistry in that scene that I never believed in it as a conclusion. The way they both instantly relax around each other in that scene, especially compared to how they have been around other people in the preceding episodes, speaks volumes to me.)

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    5. I also think that one of the reasons for Charles' low score was that he seemed genuinely pissed that this was Emma's last episode. Whereas for those of us who have watched the entire show, we already know not to care about or get invested in Emma's storylines, because we are aware that they're going nowhere and that she's just a weak plot device to give the boys somewhere to live, and to give Audrey a band to destroy. Plus I just cannot with her terrible accent, so the sooner she is gone forever, the better IMO.

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    6. I've been afraid to ask Charles his true opinions of 6x15 since he watched it because I'm scared we'll have to cancel him.

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    7. that scene in 5.03 is one of my faves! "we dated once, right?" "yeah, we did." <3 their chemistry is so evident there, and in the last couple episodes of s4 after they broke up.

      not closure, @ writers, but a lovely scene nonetheless. I've been trying to find it on youtube to watch again but no dice. :(

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    8. Lmao @ Traci... he's for sure getting kicked off SS Poey if he doesn't at least somewhat enjoy Castaways. An entire episode of Poey goodness. How can any Poey sailor not enjoy that????

      Also Pacey and Joey are about 97% of why I love DC lol

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    9. All six seasons of DC are available to stream on TVNZ so I go back to that scene often. It's so good. I'll see if I can find a way to get it on YouTube for you.

      "But I've practically forgotten now that I've slept with half the football team."
      "Really? Just half? That shows incredible restraint on your part."
      "Well, I had to leave half for my roommate."

      Those last few episodes of season 4 are heartbreaking. And their parting words - "If I were ever lucky enough to own a sailboat again, and I was to ask the woman that I love to go sailing with me, would she?"
      "You wouldn't have to ask, Pace."

      How the writers could go from that to a D/J kiss one episode later just baffles me.

      "Also Pacey and Joey are about 97% of why I love DC lol"
      SAME tho.

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    10. This is probably going to sound ridiculous but I cry every time I watch Pacey and Joey's last scene together in season four at the party. I hold it together until right after she says that Pacey wouldn't have to ask her to go sailing with him and she says "See ya" then goes to walk away but then Pacey says "See ya Joey" and smiles and then she nods and kind of smiles back then walks away while Pacey just stands there smiling after her. Oh my poor sappy Poey heart. LOL Kills me no matter how many times I've seen it.

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    11. Awww I just had to go back and watch that scene again and that's not ridiculous at all. It's a heartbreaking scene and so well acted. Love those two so much.

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  2. Greetings from Atlanta! I’m excited to have found your podcast a few weeks ago and left you a glowing review last night.

    Just wanted to say that when I watched this episode a couple weeks ago I KNEW that Charles would love how Pacey took off Joey’s shoes at the end of this episode. Especially since the discussion about how she slept in her shoes the whole night when she first slept over at Eddie’s a few episodes back. Totally called it and was just waiting for Charles to say something about it while I listened this morning :-) . This also just shows how much better Pacey is for her than Eddie is.
    Can’t wait to listen next week!!

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    1. Welcome Anon!

      Pacey taking off Joey's shoes is just one of the many ways that Pacey > Eddie. And those reasons are multitudinous.

      Culturally I find it really hard to watch anyone lying on a bed with shoes on, or putting their feet on a couch or table with shoes on. Or wearing shoes inside someone's house, but I've spent enough time in the USA to know that it's considered weird to take your shoes off at the front door unless specifically requested to do so. Whereas here, it's common courtesy to remove your shoes when you go into someone's house.

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    2. :waves: :)

      I never understood how people can leave their shoes on in someone's house, or their own! I'm in the US (Midwest) and I was raised to always take my shoes off when I get home and when I go to someone else's house. We have family who leave their shoes on and it's so rude! It's more work for the host to clean up, and who wants to have a bunch of dirt on the floor???

      "Pacey taking off Joey's shoes is just one of the many ways that Pacey > Eddie. And those reasons are multitudinous."

      agreed 1000%.

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    3. Thanks-:waves back: lol. Of course it’s only just one of the many ways that Pacey is so much >Eddie. I just wanted to point out that particular one since it’s so adorable and figured Charles would appreciate it. I also hate when people don’t take their shoes off in my house and try to be respectful of this in other people’s homes too. Anyway,I found the act of Pacey taking her shoes off for her to be super hot...while at the same time sweet, cute, intimate, and respectful-which describes their relationship perfectly to me.

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    4. Helloooo, Anon! We're so glad so many people agree that shoes don't belong on beds!!

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  3. Dawson's Creek taught me: the bottle in any tv spin the bottle game will be magically straight-only, even if non-straight people are playing.

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    1. Hey now, Jen and Emma kiss! More importantly, tv spin the bottle always knows all the plot relevant kisses it needs to make happen to move those stories forward.

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    2. I'm glad they had a f/f kiss! And when CJ and Jen left, Joey protested, and (I think) CJ was like "you just want to kiss Jen." I'd love to see that too haha.

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    3. But where was the Pacey/Jack kiss????

      (Or Jack/David, because all they do in this episode is slap each other on the back in a 'manly' hug.)

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    4. Kate -- Yeah, if we have to watch Jack and David slap each other on the back again as 'bros'...

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    5. RIGHT? I don't need them to make out passionately every time they interact (though I wouldn't mind) but the way they constantly bro it up is so annoying to watch. Perhaps reflective of the attitudes of the network/creators/cast at the time but it certainly hasn't aged very well. And the annual gay kiss gets less and less passionate as each season passes...

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  4. note to Charles: I am perfectly OK with his shoulders being the only reason for Jen/CJ.

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  5. Okay long comment because I've been waiting for this one....

    This is one of my favourite episodes, and definitely a high point of season 6. I can’t believe how low Charles’ score was! I never watch season 6 episodes 1-13 - for me, the season starts here. It’s a fun episode, with character interaction (gasp!) and Drunk Joey, my favourite of all possible Joeys. (Right up there with Joey-who-takes-no-shit-from-boys and Joey-who-is-supportive-of-Pacey.)
    The group therapy scene really plays to Busy Philips’ strength as an actress, and I’m glad she got that scene after a harrowing season so far. It’s a shame we didn’t get to see more of this fun Audrey in season 6. It’s funny how she says that Dawson is forgiving and non-judgemental, because while that’s actually true in this context, if you think back to season 3 Dawson… forgiving and non-judgemental are not words that could ever have been associated with him at that time! Is that good character growth for Dawson, or does he just not apply the same level of judgement to people he hasn’t known since childhood? Is that understandable - do we hold those we’ve known forever to a higher standard?

    I’m not sad to see the back of Emma, and I never miss her once she’s gone. I think they were aiming to set up the marriage offer coming from Pacey instead of Jack, but they’d dropped the Pacey/Emma storyline already (with no closure, as Charles says, but I cared not at all because the sooner that was over, the better IMO) so they just sent Pacey off to Joey while they shoehorned Jack into that storyline, glossed over it very quickly and then sent Emma on her way. Oh well. Bye.

    As for the CJen, it was interesting to listen to that scene at the party on your podcast. I think I’m distracted by Jensen Ackles’ face (and Jen’s terrible hair) when I watch it, and don’t completely focus on the dialogue, but on podcast, good lord. CJ is an ass. And how gross not only to have sex in Jack’s bed, but to not take everyone’s coats off the bed first. Vom.

    But in all honesty, the reason I really love this episode is because of the good ship Poey preparing to take sail again. I love all of their scenes together, from start to finish. I love how supportive they are of each other, how Pacey takes a step back when Joey declares her determination to just get drunk and forget her troubles, and actually tells her this is a ‘safe space’ then sticks by her all night to make sure she’s okay. (Big difference from the two prior Drunk Joey episodes where Pacey was always policing her alcohol intake.) I love her telling him that she’s proud of him, and how much that clearly means to him.

    I also love lots of the character interactions at the party. I love Jen telling Pacey she’ll bring ice to his party - “Ice which is for drinks, not for boys’ broken faces”. I LOVE Joey telling CJ that Jen “killed a girl once. Killed her with champagne”. I love the callback to that during spin the bottle, when Jen tells Joey to be careful - “I’ve killed before, you know” - to which Joey says “Oh I know” and mouths ‘see?’ at CJ. (Jensen Ackles is great in those moments too, his ‘okay drunk girl’ reaction to Joey always cracks me up.) I love Joey and David sitting down for a chat. I even enjoy the silly party montage in the middle.

    I have a lot of nitpicks too - the idea that girls think a big TV is dumb while boys automatically think it’s amazing still bugs me (girls like big TVs too!) and Jack getting super excited to kiss girls/to see two girls kiss during spin the bottle irritates the crap outta me every time, and feels like both the director and Kerr Smith forgot that Jack was gay while filming that - but the good outweighs the bad here for the first time in ages. I give it an 8.5 as well.

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    1. I honestly forgot how much of an ass CJ is too, and it's still SO hard to invest in this "relationship" because we all know Jen deserves better!!

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    2. tbh the only good thing about cj is we get to see jensen ackles! who, as an actor, deserved better than to be cast as this huge jerk.

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    3. I had the biggest crush on Jensen Ackles at that time, because I'd seen him on Dark Angel (which he was fantastic in, Alec was very much a prototype for Dean Winchester). Dawson's Creek did him no favours, I was amazed how boring they were able to make him considering how charismatic he usually is.

      If we had to have CJ though, I'm glad we at least get to look at Jensen Ackles for the duration of it.

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  6. In partial defense of Charles! I don't blame him for the low score (though it was too low IMO) because if you don't know what is coming with Castaways, this episode just continues the random stop/start of friendships/relationships that may/may not mean much (CJen, Poey, Awwwsonm Ja-emma etc). So I mean this episode is kind of in the slog of S6 for him, and I can understand that. I think this is only a "just OK" type of episode, the non-Poey parts aren't great.

    In not defense of Charles: they said it was late when they taped, but as mentioned here, don't agree about his Pacey-after-relationship theory. Early season 3 (buying boat to work on, getting drunk a lot, grades going down) was all trying to get over Andie. The only relationship that didn't wreck Pacey was Audrey, and as Pacey even said, he didn't really even love her at the end of it -- so that naturally was easy to move on from. Still, for only seeing the series once and it being a while ago when they watched S3, I'll give him another pass.

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    1. That's fair I suppose, although I found a lot of humour in the episode that wasn't directly Poey related. It was just nice to have the cast all together and interacting for the first time in a LONG time. So much of season 6 involves original cast members hanging out with new cast members instead of each other, so I guess I thought Charles would be happier to see them actually interact. Even Dawson's storyline involved Audrey, rather than someone else who didn't have anything to do with the rest of the cast.

      In defence of Charles re: Pacey getting over relationships, while I think his comments in general were incorrect, it's probably quite easy to look back at season 3 and remember it as being all about Poey (which it largely is) but forgetting how many of those initial episodes are about the Pandie fallout. Don't forget to add the "attempting to have a friends with benefits relationship with Jen" to Pacey's downward spiral. What I love about Pacey and Joey is that they are genuinely friends before their feelings for each other turn romantic, and it's really not until episode 3.12 (A Weekend in the Country) that the Poey ship starts getting ready to leave port.

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  7. As some people have already commented, I couldn't care less about this being Emma's last episode. I'm glad they didn't bother giving Pacey and Emma 'closure' because it shows how little one awkward half assed kiss meant to either of them in the first place. I guess in your late teens early twenties when you're sharing an apartment with the opposite sex and you're both heterosexual sometimes these things happen, doesn't mean they mean anything! SEE YA EMMA won't miss ya. Now on to Castaways :) :) :) :)

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  8. I liked Dawson/Audrey as both a platonic and romantic relationship. They had much better chemistry than most of the other pairings they tried to stick them with. At this point in the series, though, all the main characters had hooked up, it's refreshing that they didn't actually go there with them, I guess.

    I just wanted to bring up the fact, and there will probably be a more in depth discussion on it next week, but Joey and Pacey didn't just implode because Pacey didn't think he was good enough for Joey. They also imploded because Joey had an unhealthy obsession with Dawson and was constantly prioritizing him over Pacey. She often gets a free pass for their breakup, because the way Pacey broke up with her was so out of line, but she almost immediately jumped into a pseudo relationship with Dawson, which kind of validated a lot of Pacey's fears. So there are two pieces of the equation that have been solved in giving Pacey and Joey a second chance. Pacey has been successful in Boston, and Joey has let go of her attachment to Dawson.

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    1. exactly re: joey and dawson and pacey! they're all in much better places this time around, and I think age has a lot to do with that,

      ultimately pacey's issues in s4 were his own thing to deal with, and the way he broke up with her was so far out of line and will never be okay, but joey didn't exactly help said issues. i don't think she intended to hurt pacey. but even before they were officially together, joey was (imo) way too worried about how dawson would react to her and pacey (like i get being concerned, but she shouldn't have been as freaked out as she was). and then once they were together, it was more of the same. like i'm relistening to 4.01 and when they first got back, joey tells only dawson that she and pacey didn't sleep together on the boat. everyone else asks but she doesn't answer. but she tells dawson nothing happened. like, why does dawson need to know at all, and why is he the only one she answers??

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    2. I agree about Dawson & Audrey! I thought they had great chemistry both here and in the episode where she shows him around campus. At this point in the show it would've been too late to go there, but if they had done it in S5 it would've been more interesting than...most of the other things they did with Dawson. I also wonder if Natasha was meant to be sort of a faux-Audrey?

      I also think Joey was gaslighting Pacey a lot of the time while they were together, whether intentionally or not. No one deserves to be publicly humiliated and his outburst was not appropriate, but you can absolutely see why he would eventually snap. It's one of the numerous times where this show says one thing but shows something else.

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    3. Dawson/Audrey would have been infinitely preferable to Dawson/anyone else IMO. While I don't mind that they didn't go there, and as you said it would have been too late at this point, I agree that they had good chemistry. It's kind of interesting to think about how different it would have been for Joey if Audrey had dated Dawson instead of Pacey. Would Joey have felt differently about it? Would she have been more/less okay with it? I feel like she'd have been way less okay with it, which is interesting in itself because given her past relationship with Pacey, you'd think that'd be the one that she'd not want Audrey getting into, but....she's weirdly protective of Dawson. (Man, those two have such a weird relationship.)

      I also fully agree that Joey prioritised Dawson's feelings over Pacey's far too many times when they were dating (and beforehand). I think she really took Pacey for granted, and felt that because he "won" and because she loved him (which I really think she did - and she did tell him that many times over), that she could afford to pay more attention to Dawson in order to get their friendship back on track. She didn't realise how much of a toll that actually took on Pacey, and she shouldn't have done it, but I think I see why she did it. (Her unhealthy obsession with Dawson's virginity, and his with hers, is still weird and creepy and never won't be). Pacey was absolutely out of line in the way that he broke up with her, and I still can't watch that scene, but I think the following episodes made it very clear that they both still had very strong feelings for each other. Breaking up was, at that point in time, the right thing to do, because they both had a lot of personal growth to undergo. I'd just have liked to see them spend more time together (and him not date her roommate) in season 5, and build more slowly and gradually back to this relaunch of SS Poey in season 6.

      Sidenote: Joey for rushing back to Dawson at the end of season 4 was so CLEARLY just the writers ticking the "Dawson and Joey are endgame" box at the end of the season that I barely even count it as a thing that happened. They seemed to feel like they had to do that in pretty much every season of the show, just in case they didn't get renewed I suppose... #tedious

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    4. I agree with this whole thing. she def took pacey for granted, whether she meant to or not, and she thought that picking him at the end of s3 would be enough, but it was not.

      I do think she really did love him and just didn't realize the effect that prioritizing dawson's feelings would have on pacey and their relationship.

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    5. Yep I don't think she meant to take him for granted at all.

      This is why that scene in the staff kitchen in Castaways is so therapeutic.
      "Right, because God forbid I might just be talking about YOU and ME right now."

      They both make such good points in that scene and I love that she calls him out on being the one that broke up with her, while he airs his feelings about how quickly she seemed to get over him, while STILL being hung up on Dawson.

      Joey and Dawson together are so toxic, thank god they never ended up together because that would've been disastrous.

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    6. You guys, this is my first comment here and I'm so glad I finally have someone to discuss this season with! I'm not from the US and I'd never even heard of Dawson's Creek before two months ago, but I stumbled upon it on Amazon Prime and binged the whole thing after witnissing the Poey relationship come to be.

      I just have to say, it's SO frustrating how they rushed the Poey reunion this episode instead of actually building something since the beginning of the season. I'm actually convinced at this point that the writers saw Poey as something that was over and done with, and only existed in season 3/4 to create conflict between Joey and Dawson - their real "endgame" couple. I honestly don't think they expected the audience to get so invested in this ship that they would still talk about it until season 6. But when they realized the show was close to an end and that they needed some sort of conflict, plus everyone absolutely LOVED Poey, they took the opportunity to add the drama and give the people what they wanted.

      It annoys me to no end that they completely ignored Poey during season 5 and acted as if Pacey dating Audrey was something completely normal for Joey -- I mean, c'mon!! was it really that difficult to just have her feel a little bit bothered??

      All in all, I still love this episode. It has drunk fun Joey and Pacey returning to his roots of a decent, romantic guy! Ugh, I wish we could've seen more of that during the last seasons.

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    7. Hi and welcome aboard the SS Poey! Where are you from? I'm from New Zealand and I watched the show as a teenager. Which obviously I'm not any more, but I still enjoy this show and still love Pacey and Joey as a couple.

      It's always so interesting to get a fresh perspective from new viewers :) I completely agree that Poey was only ever intended to create conflict - the writers have said that they saw the chemistry between Josh and Katie during the season 1 episode Double Date (during which time they were dating in real life, apparently) but decided to shelve it and come back to it later on. When Greg Berlanti took over as showrunner halfway through season 3 (after two previous showrunners had been fired, which is why the start of season 3 is such a trainwreck *cough* Eve *cough*) it was apparently his idea to have Pacey kiss Joey and see where that would lead.

      I can see how, if you've got an idea for an 'endgame' couple, it would be frustrating to find that the chemistry isn't there (not compared to the other branch of your triangle, anyway), but I think you have to follow the chemistry and not the preconceived idea for how you want something to go down. Even when writing novels, characters will often do things you don't want them to do - they tend to have minds of their own, and actors will always have an influence on their roles. (I think 1x10 Beauty Contest is the episode where the writers stopped writing an idea of Pacey that they'd had in their heads, and started writing for Joshua Jackson. That continued into season 2, and he became the hero of that season.)

      It's clear in season 5 that the writers were trying to get away from Pacey/Joey and back to Dawson/Joey, but it just didn't work. You can't ignore chemistry like that. In the end, they basically stopped putting them on-screen together entirely. Up until they got cancelled, and decided to give Poey one last hurrah. Which, along with the series finale, is what makes season 6 superior to season 5, overall. IMO.

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    8. I'm from Brazil! DC isn't known at all over here so watching it was pretty lonely cause I had absolutely no one to talk about it :( But tbh, it was nice watching it with no expectations and being mind blown by Pacey and Joey's chemistry -- I mean, seriously, I think they're my all time favorite couple ever and Pacey is one of the best male characters I've ever seen (though JJ's acting has a lot to do with that).

      Yeah, I agree with everything you said. I'm sure it must've been really hard to see that Joey/Dawson chemistry didn't come close to Joey/Pacey, especially since Joey and Dawson were constantly painted as soulmates, destined to be together. To be quite frank, when I first watched it, I actually shipped Dawson and Joey because oh well, they're kinda cute together and it was really frustrating to see Joey so upset over him. But oh my god, the second they paired Joey and Pacey in S1, the chemistry just jumped out of the screen!! I swear, I had no idea they'd be a thing in the future, but I immediately thought I'd love to see more of them together. It just fits.

      Season 5 was SO hard to go through. They barely even acknowledged each other, even though Pacey was freaking dating Joey's roommate!! It literally made no sense. It's so weird how the writers went from 100 to 0 so quickly. I mean, season 3/4 Poey developed so naturally, had such human interactions and reactions, I often forgot I was watching a show. They felt real, like how a real relationship flows. And then season 5 happened and it couldn't be more forced. No one, especially not someone who fell so intensely for someone else, went on a three month trip alone with them, had sex for the first time with them, spent nine months together after being friends since forever, no way you get over that so quickly!! And to the point where you're fine seeing them all over your roommate just three months after you broke up?? Please! It was HARD these were actors just following directions, because no one acts like that in real life.

      Wow, sorry for the rant, but I've been dying to get this out of my chest and I finally found a place to do it! Feels nice. And it's great to see that I'm not imagining all of this, because everyone else noticed it. Season 6 is definitely superior to season 5 and I absolutely love how Pacey and Joey are so much mature now.

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    9. "it was nice watching it with no expectations and being mind blown by Pacey and Joey's chemistry -- I mean, seriously, I think they're my all time favorite couple ever and Pacey is one of the best male characters I've ever seen"

      100% agree. They are still my OTP, after all these years. Which is crazy when I think about how many other TV shows I've watched in that time, but there's just something about those two that warms my heart.

      As a sidenote, I cannot recommend enough the Dawson's Creek recaps on the old 'Television Without Pity' site, now at brilliantbutcancelled.com, which recaps the first Pacey/Joey scene in season 3 thusly:

      Joey cries on her dock. Pacey appears in Dawson's boat and tells her he got in and it took him to her dock of its own volition. Because it's Dawson's boat. And Dawson likes her so much that even the boat knows. Geddit? She tries to warn him off with threats of murder, which he ignores, hopping up beside her. She pauses a moment, and then says, "He told you what happened, didn't he?" Pacey doesn't answer until she repeats the question, at which point he mutters, "Well, what do you think?" Okay, in those two lines of dialogue, Katie Holmes and Joshua Jackson had more chemistry than she and the Beek have ever had, and I am not joking.

      The slow-burn development of Poey in season 3 is still probably my favourite thing overall about the show. It's a shame that season 4 got bogged down in Joey and Dawson being weird and creepy about each other's sex lives, because I just wanted to see Poey and the way the writers perpetually dragged us back to the possibility of D/J was so frustrating. There are people out there who ship Dawson and Joey together, but they are a minority compared to P/J.

      Feel free to rant - I feel the same way!

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    10. thank you for that link! I love tv show recaps and I def know what I'm going to spend my time reading over the holiday season.

      "Okay, in those two lines of dialogue, Katie Holmes and Joshua Jackson had more chemistry than she and the Beek have ever had, and I am not joking."

      i love this. so true. I wonder how much of their chemistry is due to the fact that josh and katie dated irl? but I also think that this kind of chemistry is something that happened naturally, dating or not. (mary-margaret humes posted a couple cute pictures of josh and katie while they were dating on insta in the past and it's wonderful.)

      welcome, anon! so good to have another dc person to talk about this show with. :) and yay for being team poey! the writers ignoring the fact that they dated for a year is so not cool. and then to have him date her roommate is even worse.

      "The slow-burn development of Poey in season 3 is still probably my favourite thing overall about the show. It's a shame that season 4 got bogged down in Joey and Dawson being weird and creepy about each other's sex lives, because I just wanted to see Poey and the way the writers perpetually dragged us back to the possibility of D/J was so frustrating. There are people out there who ship Dawson and Joey together, but they are a minority compared to P/J."

      agreed with all of this! they never really let poey be happy - even when they got back from the trip there was almost immediatly conflict between them and dawson. like I said upthread, I like their development from friends to so much more, more than their actual relationship for the most part.

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    11. It seemed like every Pacey/Joey storyline in season 4 involved conflict between them. Honestly, it's remarkable that they remained believable as a couple for so long, and I think that's down to the chemistry, because no matter how many conflicts and challenges the writers shoved into their storyline, you never stop believing that they genuinely love each other. The show wanted to give them a reason to break up but even the writers couldn't really find a conflict that lasted. Unlike Dawson/Joey where, whenever they threw conflict at them, they immediately fought and broke up.

      I think the Josh/Katie chemistry does have a bit to do with the fact that they dated, because they are so clearly comfortable with each other. They touch each other a lot, in little subtle ways, he kisses her hand, she kisses his forehead, there's that shot on the boat in the season 4 premiere where he kisses her chin and she kisses his nose, and it never feels forced. It always seems so natural between them and that's what makes them so great together. Plus the way they look at each other... *heart eyes*

      There is a scene still coming up in season 6 that absolutely drives the point home about how different the chemistry is between Joey and Pacey and Joey and anyone else. I'll talk about it when we get there, but the more times I see it, the harder it is to watch.

      In the meantime, here's another fun link if you haven't seen this one before, it's from a table read of the pilot with a guest cast. I think Mae Whitman makes an outstanding Dawson, and Kerr Smith reading the part of Jen is hilarious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0nij5sC0zY

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  9. "It annoys me to no end that they completely ignored Poey during season 5 and acted as if Pacey dating Audrey was something completely normal for Joey -- I mean, c'mon!! was it really that difficult to just have her feel a little bit bothered??"

    Oh same! The writers acted like Pacey wasn't the actual love of Joey's life or someone with who she had a 9 month long relationship with. Just bizarre.

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  10. Right?? They had such an intense relationship! From the get-go, they fell so hard for each other. And they spent NINE freaking months together. That's like the longest relationship Joey EVER had with someone. How do you just get over that in three months? Ugh, there's so much I wish the writers would've done with this story, I could go on forever. I mean, I know they wanted Joey/Dawson back on track, but could it be more forced??

    I had such high expectations for season 5, but it was such a let down. And you know what? I wouldn't mind at all if Pacey and Joey actually tried to take the "just friends" route, and actually showed that, while they did feel bothered seeing the other with someone else, they were still willing to swallow their pride because they're not together anymore. I mean, that would've been a great arc! And if was done right and naturally, it could lead to a great Pacey/Joey friendship, were they still care deeply for each other, but are mature enough to know that there are reasons they shouldn't be together in that moment. They could've acknowledged that. So much character development could've come from that. But no. They just completely ignore everything that happened like it was nothing. Like Pacey wasn't the guy who bought her A FREAKING WALL and REMEMBERED EVERYTHING. Ugh. How do they expect us to believe that Joey settled for Eddie after a whole Pacey happened is beyond me.

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    1. You are all my people and I love you. Haha. Honestly this is the first place I've really had a space to vent about Dawson's Creek because it was on SO long ago and the internet was such an infant at the time.

      @auri - I completely agree re: season 5. They totally should have had Pacey and Joey trying to be just friends. I'd have been really interested in watching that. I'd have liked to see them start out awkwardly, not quite sure where they stand with each other, then through the course of the season, start to rebuild what they had before. Mitch's death, Jen/Dawson getting together, Joey getting mugged - these are all storylines where the temptation to lean on each other for emotional support would have been strong. The mugging storyline in particular could have been a catalyst for Pacey and Joey to get back together, or at least for that to be on the cards. Because one of the MANY things that didn't make season in season 5 was how casual Pacey was about Joey having been MUGGED AT GUNPOINT. And also how Joey just got over it and moved on, seemingly without any problem. She should have had some PTSD from that, and I would have liked to see her struggling with that, being genuinely scared to leave her room, and Pacey would white-knight it up and do everything he could to look after her, while Audrey would take the opposite tack and tell Joey to just get up and stop hiding from reality. I'd have been interested to see Joey falling back on Pacey like a security blanket whenever life gets hard, before ultimately realising that they are holding each other back from growing as people. I'd have liked that storyline where he got a job offer to go work on a yacht again to come at the end of the season, and for him to take the job and leave, putting some distance between the two of them again. THEN, they could have had Joey and Dawson be the only two back in Capeside together for the summer, and have their friendship build back up during that time, right up to the point where they get back together at the start of season 6 and try again. It would've been a long enough time and a slow enough build for it to actually make sense. But then Dawson moves to CA to follow his dreams, and Joey meets Pacey-lite (aka Eddie), who is booksmart and intellectual and a writer, which is what Joey THINKS she wants. And she starts to fall for him, but then Pacey comes back...

      Re: Pacey/Audrey, I'd have them not like each other at the start, bc Audrey would want Joey to move on from her high school boyfriend and party more with her (Pacey tends to be the party police when it comes to Joey). But P/Audrey gain a mutual respect for each other and start to get along. Then she develops a crush on him, but knows he's off limits. But one night they go to a club together and they've both been drinking a bit (Audrey a lot) and she kisses him...and he kisses her back...on the same night Joey gets mugged. So then they BOTH end up feeling super guilty about that, not just Audrey...

      Okay, I need to stop or I'll be here all night. I have a whole season 5 rewrite in my head, can you tell? I think about all this WAY too much.

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    2. wow I just.... I need all of that to somehow happen. omg. that's so much better than reality aka the actual show!

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    3. @Sarah - haha thanks :) I had a bit of writer's block earlier this year and I was really struggling to complete my latest novel, so I ended up plotting out a rewrite for Dawson's Creek season 4 (a version that, amongst other things, keeps Andie around) so I ended up thinking about seasons 5 and 6 and going from there. It was an interesting challenge to try and figure out how to keep the main story points and characters but rework it so that it made more sense to me. Some day I might end up writing it down in a more cohesive format than a spreadsheet ;)

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