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615 - Castaways

We are unapologetic Poey shippers, and we're OK with that.

From Traci: "One thing I didn't get a chance to talk about during the episode this week is that I think Joey may be the first relationship for Pacey where he didn't feel like he needed to 'save' someone. And maybe that was a big part of why they ended up falling apart back in high school. Pacey felt inferior when he was with Joey because he felt like everyone was judging him, and that wore him down eventually. Not that that excuses his behavior and the way he broke up with her, but I think that also says a lot about how Pacey has always looked back on his relationship with Joey with regret."

From Charles: "Unrelated to the actual substance of the episode, but another reason I liked Castaways so much is the realization of the childhood dream of.. getting locked inside a big box store (especially with someone who is more or less your best friend)."

Also... this is our last episode of the decade! We'll be back on Jan. 13 with a new episode, and then straight on through the finale...! Happy holidays, and happy new year to all!

Episode links:

Got something to say? Leave it in the comments below, or you can email us at, call us at 732-98-CREEK, or find us at @dawsonsspeakpod on Twitter and Facebook.


  1. Yaaaay! Merry Christmas to you both as well, so happy to have this episode out for Christmas (I laughed so hard listening to Traci explaining how she had to make sure she kept to the schedule to get this one out).

    This episode is definitely a 10/10 for me but that's not going to surprise anyone who has read any of my comments before. It's the episode of DC that I have watched more times than any other, it's my 'chicken soup' in that I watch it when I'm sick and just need to smile and feel better. (Literally put it on a few days ago when I was bedridden with a head cold.)

    It was 11pm here in NZ when I checked this page (as I have been doing all day) to see if this was uploaded yet, so it's now quarter to 1... oh well. I'll try and post a clip on Twitter of me listening to this because I have a 6 week old kitten who got a major case of the zoomies just as I started listening and he ran around for at least the first hour of it. (He's now curled up on my shoulder purring like an outboard motor, watching me type.)

    I need sleep now, because I have to get up at 6am to feed my horses, but I'm sure I'll be back with more thoughts in the morning. The last episode got up to 50 comments but I reckon we can beat it with our Castaways discussion... ;) #challengeaccepted

    (Before I go, I think you need to rewatch that scene in 5.03, because to me, that scene is a classic example of the show trying to give them closure, but there is so much chemistry in that scene that it never felt like closure to me. I'd be interested to see what you think of it if you rewatch.)

    I'll sign out for now with my friend Rachael's favourite line from this episode:

    "Hello chin! You're back."

    1. "Before I go, I think you need to rewatch that scene in 5.03, because to me, that scene is a classic example of the show trying to give them closure, but there is so much chemistry in that scene that it never felt like closure to me. I'd be interested to see what you think of it if you rewatch."

      Agree 100%. It doesn't feel like closure at all because there's just too much chemistry. And not even that, in those few minutes you can actually tell how good they are for each other. They both seem so relaxed and comfortable and longing for each other or what they used to have. When I watched it for the first time, I was sure that was setting up for the development of their relationship as friends trying to resist each other. And that's why it was so frustrating from the next episode onward to watch them act like nothing happened.

    2. "When I watched it for the first time, I was sure that was setting up for the development of their relationship as friends trying to resist each other. And that's why it was so frustrating from the next episode onward to watch them act like nothing happened."

      1000% this. Friends trying to resist each other, both doing their best to be supportive of each other, but as they get into other relationships, it's harder and harder for them to spend time together as their romance seems to fade away more and more... I'd have been interested to see one of them move on more quickly/determinedly than the other and the tension that came from that... Ah, if only we were writing the show. With the benefit of hindsight, of course!

      They really are so good for each other, I totally agree. They are the best versions of themselves when they're together, and that speaks volumes about the potential longevity of their relationship. "You and I were the one thing, perhaps the only thing, that EVER made total and complete sense in my life. That's what I know." *sigh*

  2. I've been waiting all week for this and you did not disappoint! Yes Charles liked it and we don't have to kick him off SS Poey! Lol

    So since I started listening to this podcast, there have been several Poey centric episodes I couldn't wait for you to cover but this one by far was the most enjoyable and satisfying to listen to for me. I smiled and laughed the entire time! I enjoyed what you both had to say about this episode and the happiness you guys felt about it made it even more enjoyable to hear. I could've listened for two hours quite frankly lol Such a fitting episode to leave us on before the break so thanks Traci for setting it up that way �� Also the shout outs about the comments are always fun to hear so thanks for that too. With that said...

    Poor Charles lmao
    He doesn't know just how right he is to be skeptical because from here, SS Poey takes a nose dive. The writers somehow take this lovely episode and then yanks all the goodies equivalent to someone making you a cake for dessert and then knowing how much you enjoyed that then turns around and insists on giving you a box of prunes for dessert for a few weeks. 'Lovebites' is an awful episode and even the one before that one 'Sex and Violence' is so silly and ridiculous imo.

    Also Charles believing that the writers were not gonna bring back the Dawson/Joey/Pacey triangle... bless him. It actually made no sense to bring it back especially given Dawson and Joey nor Pacey and Dawson even speak to each other much at this point on the show but what can ya do? The next episode I enjoy after this is the finale minus the Jen stuff because that still makes me mad but other than that, that's the next thing I look forward to hearing about from the two of you.

    Thanks so much for another enjoyable year and Merry Christmas to you, Charles, your families and friends. Also Happy Holidays to everyone reading this if you celebrate anything. I hope all of you have a happy and safe New Year!

    1. Yes thanks Traci for the shoutouts and for reading out our (often rather long-winded) comments :) It's always a buzz to be part of the podcast in that way.

      I feel bad for Charles too. He has no idea that the good ship SS Poey is about to hit some rough water, and then capsize. Again. And not even for any good reason, which I think is what I hate most about it. The idea that Joey breaks it off with Pacey to go back to Eddie doesn't make any sense, and the fact that Eddie disappears a couple of episodes later just makes it clear that they only did that because a) they still had two more episodes on Oliver Hudson's contract, and b) they wanted to get to "who will she choose?" in the series finale so Joey had to be single.

      I think I could have lived with it if we'd actually seen a contrast between the way that Pacey and Joey were approaching the renewed relationship - if Pacey was 10x more into it and more committed than Joey, I can see her trying to get him to slow down a bit, and Pacey being Pacey, not understanding and going all out with the grand gestures and romantic speeches. Joey, on the other hand, is scared of that commitment, I think because she realises that she still has a lot of living and growing to do, and she wants to do that independently. She's not sure that she wants to settle down with Pacey forever at this point in her life. Plus, she's been hurt by him before and I think she does want to protect her heart to a certain extent. I think the show attempted that reasoning, but it didn't really give us much build up to it. Pacey is very patient and reasonable throughout this courtship, he gives her space when she needs it (too much sometimes, honestly) and is just all around the ideal boyfriend as per usual, which makes her breaking up with him so bizarre. Especially since the chemistry is still so good that they FEEL like they’re madly in love. The show never actually makes it clear what her deep interior thoughts are about the whole thing. We know how Pacey feels bc he wears it on his sleeve, but we don’t get the same real insight into Joey’s feelings. That's something that the show struggles with in the later seasons - as irritatingly introspective as the gang could be in earlier seasons, at least the show took time to tell us how they really felt. Nobody talks to each other about their feelings anymore except to go over things we already know.

      Oh how I wish we'd had a Pacey/Jack scene, where he tells him all excitedly that him and Joey are back together, letting us see Jack's reaction to this, and then a Jack/Joey scene where he congratulates her on the rekindled romance and she confesses to him that she's not sure she's as into it as Pacey is, and Jack tells her that she has to tell Pacey that sooner rather than later...then the audience would know what's coming and be more prepared for it and understand it. Rather than the way it goes down where all we get is romance romance romance breakup sadness. (Also, why didn’t we get ANY insight into how anyone else felt about their renewed relationship?)

    2. @Leslie - I don't hate most of Love Bites, because there's some cute Poey stuff in there - the corsages in particular is cute - but the ending sucks. And Sex and Violence is borderline unwatchable. But neither are as bad as Lovelines...yeesh.

      At least we have the finale. That makes up for a LOT.

    3. Spoiler alert for Charles cause I'm just too excited that now I have a place to discuss DC and I can't wait until the next episodes.

      @Leslie: completely agree that it made no sense to bring back the love triangle at this point, at least not the way they did. Dawson was so isolated from P/J that I didn't even consider Joey would still feel actual, solid romantic feelings for him. I should've seen it coming, but I was still blindsided when they started hinting that she had a choice to make. What choice?! They barely interact with each other, how could she possibly be in LOVE with him?

      @Kate - oh my god! That's exactly how I feel too! When Joey started showing she may have doubts regarding Pacey, it felt so out of nowhere? Specially since in the previous episode she was so jealous and into him. Their chemistry is still off the charts! Those scenes with Jack would've been perfect -- though heartbreaking, ugh Pacey doesn't deserve this.

      And how can Joey be so blind as to go back to Eddie, who's always so condescending towards her and outright left her without even saying goodbye? While you have Pacey, actually going back to dance with her after she just broke his little heart, who's always doing so much to give her time and space and respect her decisions. It's soooo hard to believe she would make such a stupid decision. It'd be much more believable if she just broke it up for not wanting a commitment or not being as into him as he's into her -- but no, they just have to push her back to stupid Eddie because apparently Joey can't be alone for more than one episode.

    4. Honestly, Dawson/Joey feels SO manufactured at this point that I completely dismiss it as just the writers ticking the "Could Dawson/Joey still be endgame?" box because they didn't want to deviate too far from Kevin Williamson's original idea. I don't know if that's true but I feel like it would have been in the back of their minds, that D/J are "destined" to end up together so those cards must always remain on the table. (Imagine if that was the case though, and then KW came back and wrote the P/J finale. How annoyed would you be?)

      Pacey going back to dance with Joey that last time breaks my heart EVERY time. I am also jealous of Traci and Charles getting that scene with the original music (Just Another, by Pete Yorn) because it's a perfect song for that moment. I can't find that scene with that soundtrack anywhere (at least the "Juliette" version of the shaving scene is on YouTube, albeit in extremely low quality).

    5. My favorite part of the comments is how concerned we all are for Charles because he really will hate the last couple of episodes (pre-series finale) when the Poey break up again...

  3. I haven't listened to this episode yet (I am saving it specifically for my walk home from work/holiday shopping tonight, as a reward for barely surviving working 13 days straight) but I CANNOT WAIT to listen. One of my fave eps of the show. Your ep is nice and long AND sounds like Charles liked this episode, so I guess he can stay aboard the SS Poey and we don't have to kick him off. ;)

    I love this episode but don't like what the writers did to Poey this time around. I can't remember specifics, I just remember [redacted] comes back and it isn't pretty. This episode is a nice little bubble.

    And I can't believe the previous ep got 50 comments! We can beat that, I think. :D

    1. I think half those comments were from me, LOL. (Sorry.)

      Congrats on surviving all those hours of work! I take my hat off to you.

  4. This isn't really about the episode per say and I'm sorry if I sound like a teenager here, but am I the only that absolutely melts the second Pacey rubs the towel on his face and we can actually see his chin after such a long time? He looks so good! And the way he looks at Joey so passionately! How could she ever resist him is a mystery to me. That's peak Joshua Jackson and I actually agree with Joey that's the moment I feel like we get Pacey -- mature, romantic, hero Pacey -- back.

    Ugh, I just love this episode so much!

    1. Yes! Omg Joshua Jackson just gets better with age!

    2. @auri - you are DEFINITELY not alone. And Lisa is right - JJax ages like a fine wine. (Admittedly, I like him better with facial hair than without these days, but not a goatee. Never a goatee.)

      Has anyone else watched The Affair? The first season was good and then from there it got pretty melodramatic, plus Cole was the only character I liked so I only watched his scenes, but it was worth it because phwoar. Here's a clip video on YouTube for a taste of the JJax goodness:

    3. Yes! Adorable and HOT as Pacey-but def even better with age. Just FYI he is going to be in Little Fires Everywhere on Hulu in March and I cannot wait! I’m reading it right now. So good!

    4. Oh I have to finish that book, I bought it and started it but then got sidetracked. Cannot WAIT, Reese Witherspoon knows what's up when she cast him as her husband ;)

    5. Oh cool, I didn't know that! Wow, definitely going to watch it. Just saw the trailer and I like this genre; Reese is a great actress and I really want to see JJ acting in something else. I've been considering watching Fringe, have any of you ever seen it? Is it good?

      And while we're at it: do you guys have any TV shows like DC to recommend? I'm mainly looking for a Poey-like ship I can root for -- a couple with as much chemistry as them and that gets me as invested, if that's possible. I'm really feeling lost after I finished DC and I love reading rewatches and listening to DC podcasts, but I want to start something new. So anything will be appreciated!

    6. I didn't even realise there was a trailer out! *goes to check* Well, that wasn't much of a trailer LOL but I am looking forward to it.

      I've seen Fringe, it's pretty good. Peter is no Pacey and his chemistry with Olivia is nowhere near the Poey but if you like a procedural sci-fi then it's worth a watch. The alternate reality stuff is way more interesting than the case-of-the-week format, and the last season is the best, but I'm not sure how much sense it would make without the previous seasons' build up.

      Shows like DC that I would recommend: Veronica Mars is a teen show with a great pairing, although (like Poey) it takes a while for that ship to start sailing, but it's a great and compelling show and it's worth the wait once you get to it. One of my favourites for sure.

      I would also always recommend Friday Night Lights, not sure it has a Poey equivalent but it's my favourite show of all time, it really has that 'small town, real people' feel to it and all of the characters are so compelling. Plus, it has a really loving, positive married relationship at the heart of it, which is SO rare on TV and so wonderful to watch. Warning: it will make you cry. (Parenthood, made by the same show runner, is also great.)

      The other show I've been watching recently that has a lovely slow-burn relationship is Anne with an E, which is a recent interpretation of Anne of Green Gables. It's a period piece, set in the late 1890s, and it's beautifully acted and made. And that WILL make you cry.

      But a couple with as much chemistry as Poey is pretty hard to come by, honestly. That's why DC has endured for so long in my heart. Nobody else on TV has ever even come close.

    7. Yes to Anne/Gilbert (what’s their ship name?) being equivalent to the Poey! ❤️ so good!

    8. The Anne/Gilbert ship name is Shirbert (for her last name Anne Shirley). Super cute.

  5. This was such a great episode to listen to and I'll listen to it again after I finish writing this :) Charles made a good point when he speculated whether Joey and Eddie will get back together. I disliked them getting back together but made sense because Joey in 'Clean and Sober' and 'Castaways' was not over Eddie and she even admitted to Pacey that she really did like Eddie and she didn't have the closure that she needed.

    As much as I think Poey could've continued to set sail from here on out, this was an epic love story and epic loves need rocky waters. Joey needed to see out the rest of her relationship with Eddie and have a proper goodbye, go to Paris and do all the other growing up stuff, same as Pacey. The way the writers went about it could've been better. But I commend Charles for sitting through seasons 5 and 6, even with the knowledge that he thinks Dawson and Joey will be endgame. On my first watch I instantly skipped to the finale to see who ended up with who before I put myself through the torture of two not so great seasons haha.

    Prior to this podcast, I've always hated the way the writers flip flop with these characters and don't do them justice, especially the Poey ship. They give us a great episode like 'Castaways' and then don't deliver on it. But I've appreciated the show more since listening to you guys, it's made me realise that Poey needed to break up when they did because they were immature and although the writers kept throwing Joey and Dawson in our faces, I believe they were trying to tell us it's like those relationships that on paper it's a great idea and it works, but in reality you can try as much as you want it will just not sail.

    Have a great Christmas! Can't wait until Jan 13 :D

    1. This podcast has made me think a lot more about the show too :) I have always, ALWAYS hated the way Pacey and Joey break up in season 4, to the point where I can't even watch that scene, but the more I think about it, the more I agree that it had to happen. When I decided to do a re-write of seasons 5 and 6 (just for my own entertainment), I originally was just going to have them not break up, but I quickly realised that wasn't a good move. They need that time apart and personal growth. I don't like HOW they broke up, or really why, and I like why they break up the second time even less, although the breakup itself is less traumatic (mostly because I'm just yelling JOEY WHAT ARE YOU DOING??? at the screen) but I get that they needed to do it. It's just not well executed, and if it wasn't for the chemistry between those two, it would be incredibly tiresome to watch. (Kind of like Dawson/Joey, actually...)

      I just wish I understood more about why Joey likes Eddie so much. He's such a whiny crybaby. He's like all the bad parts of Pacey with none of the charm. (How JJax got through DC with his charm intact is impressive, considering what the writers did to Oliver Hudson and Jensen Ackles, who are both quite capable of being very charismatic, yet are bland and annoying in this show.)

    2. @Kaet: "I just wish I understood more about why Joey likes Eddie so much. He's such a whiny crybaby. He's like all the bad parts of Pacey with none of the charm."

      Oh my god, YES! Actually, can we take a moment to talk about Joey's terrible taste in man after she goes to college? We have Wilder in season 5, which I won't even go in detail because the mere fact that he's her PROFESSOR is enough to explain why he sucks. Then Charlie, who cheated on Jen and stalked Joey all the way to Florida -- talk about red flags. And finally Eddie, constantly belittling Joey, treating her like a spoiled kid, acting like he's above everyone else and she's lucky she gets to date him. I mean, even after HE LEAVES she still chases after him because she's oh so worried. GIRL, HE LEFT YOU!

      Idk, all of her post-Pacey relationships are really weird, really hard to get into because the characters are SO unlikable. And maybe it's just me, but all of her college boyfriends are extremely problematic, even bordering abusive sometimes. Truthfully, she was either supposed to end alone or with Pacey, because anything else would've been a crime.

    3. YES YES YES thank you! And don't forget the series finale guy, who seems like a pretentious tool as well. I don't get it. Wilder is just yuck - I don't even find Ken Marino attractive (though he is hilarious in Veronica Mars and his "The Bachelor" spoof show "Burning Love" is hysterical, you should check it out on YouTube) but Wilder was just gross and I could NOT understand what Joey saw in him. Charlie was the worst, and the scene where Pacey encourages Joey to go after him, after he has stalked her down to Florida, is one of the most questionable Pacey moments in the entire series. He hated Charlie (with good reason) and should be telling her to run the other way. And Eddie is just...NOPE.

      It's definitely not just you that finds the college boyfriends problematic. It's not even that they're not as good as Pacey, they're just not good altogether.

      Apart from Pacey (and Jack), Joey has awful taste in men. Don't even get me started on Dawson...

    4. I'm so glad I've found people who also don't like Eddie. The majority of people I've spoken to didn't have a problem with Eddie but I seriously hated him more than any of Joey's other boyfriends.

      He was emotionally abusive and kept putting the blame on her when things didn't go his way, and being lovey-dovey when he's in a good mood. Like the time she slept in for that exam, and he blamed her for it instead of helping her find a solution. At the Christmas dinner, he broke up with her because she was perfect and he couldn't live up to it. How is that her fault?! He could never make up his mind with what he wanted. And he leaves Joey in the worst possible way--through a letter--again, saying that it was her fault because she wasn't spontaneous and didn't want to travel. What a jerk.

    5. He's such a diva. Honestly. "Let's go to Paris, it's your dream." - "Okay great but not tomorrow, I need to organise my life first." - "If you won't come tomorrow, we're not going at all." I think it goes something like that. She should have kicked him to the curb AGES ago and I just can't figure out WHY she would go for him instead of Pacey. Pacey always finds a way to fix it when she fails at school, remember 4.10?

    6. Happy holidays everyone! I just wanted to jump in and give my two cents about Eddie. I always thought that scene where Joey looks at her picture wall and goes from Dawson to Pacey and then landing on Eddie was about her desire to keep moving forward. I think she was always afraid of being stuck in the past and projected on Eddie what she wanted for herself: maturity, creativity, talent. He’s her first truly significant relationship after Pacey and it’s easier for her to overlook his flaws because she doesn’t really know him. So she chalks up all the ways he lets her down to external reasons (like being unemployed or Hetson goading him).
      I think she loves Pacey much much more but also has good reason to be afraid because now the two have so much history between them. She knows what it looks like if things go wrong again. Whereas Eddie is still a blank slate that she can project onto all the things she thinks she can get from a relationship but really can only get from investing in herself.
      Pacey is so obviously superior to Eddie that I think Eddie is just a convenient escape route from Joey's fears. But she’s talked herself into believing he’s better than he really is.

    7. That's a really good point Nicole! I think you're right about that. Every time I see that picture wall, I just stare at Pacey and fantasise about their boat trip.

      Happy holidays to you too :)

    8. Had to add hoe appalled I was that Joey left the fun and charming Pacey for such a dud. Eddie’s line for winning Joey back is that he needs her to be able to write! 😩

    9. I think the writers suffered a lot in seasons 5 + 6 with introducing characters and then forgetting why they introduced them. Eddie is a prime example of that. That relationship between him and Joey could've been so interesting and complex...

  6. Okay a few fun facts about this episode:

    Fun fact #1: I had this episode on VHS, recorded off the TV, and I watched it so many times that the tape wore out and I had to throw it away. I'm not even kidding. It was a sad day in my life.

    Fun fact #2: On IMDb they have listed the following goof: The blonde in the opening scene has her hand in Pacey's lap when Joey goes to get her shoe underneath the table. In the shot prior to Joey going under the table, the blonde has her arms folded. When Joey hits her head on the table, the shot immediately after has the blonde with her arms folded. Apparently a 3 armed actress.

    Fun fact #3: If you want to watch the episode with the original song, it's here (albeit in very low quality): (Sidenote: I always thought the lyrics "Juliette" was actually saying "To the end".)

    Fun fact #4: There is still, somewhere online, B roll footage of Katie and Josh when they were shooting this episode. There's some in the car, when they're chatting between takes, and a few other bits and pieces. There's nothing super juicy or interesting, to be honest, but they do seem to get along really well.

    Fun fact #5: No idea if this is true, but I have heard more than once that the "It's okay, don't be shy" line when Joey is putting shaving cream on Pacey's face was an ad-lib from Josh.

    Fun fact #6: This episode was written by Gina Fattore, whose first episode of DC was Indian Summer. I guess it's fair to say that her writing improved over time! She wrote quite a few Poey episodes, including 3.09 Four to Tango, 3.16 To Green With Love (when he buys her a wall!), 3.20 The Longest Day, 3.23 True Love, 4.04 Future Tense, 4.10 Self-Reliance, 4.16 Mind Games and, of course, this one. So she has a pretty good track record and is considered by fans to be one of the better writers on staff, especially by this point. (I won't blame her for writing Coda, or Day out of Days, or Spiderwebs, because TV staff writers don't get to choose the plotlines and she wasn't the show runner, so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt there and assume it was as painful as her to write as it was for the rest of us to watch.)

    Fun fact #7: There's a Castaways quiz here: Proud to say that I got 100% correct.

    And finally... this is not so much a fact but I wanted to share this description from TWOP about this episode, because it always makes me laugh:

    Castaways - Joey and Pacey are locked in a K-Mart. No Dawson. No Audrey. No boring tertiary characters yapping about their stupid lives. Katie Holmes and Josh Jackson look alive for the second episode in a row as their characters actually talk about the fact that, you know, they used to go out. Eventually, Pacey admits that he's been having schmoopy feelings for Joey. She kisses him a couple of times, but asks to think about the possibility of them getting back together for a bit before giving him a definitive answer. Bonus: Pacey loses the goatee! Praise the sweet Lord!

    The full recap is here and well worth reading:

    Also, there's a fun recap here (these recaps are also hilarious):

  7. happy holidays to traci and charles and all of you! <3

    okay I've listened to some of the podcast (can't wait to finish it asap) but I wrote the following in the notes app on my phone while I was listening:

    Re: Pacey wanting Joey to have shown a little more emotion after they broke up and not get over him so fast. I was under the impression that they didn’t talk until 5.03. Wasn’t Joey shocked to see him in the restaurant? So if they didn’t talk all summer, how would he know? Maybe she was sad and he didn’t see it cause he wasn't there. I don’t know how much time was between their breakup and graduation (my high school had prom and then graduation in one weekend but I think it was longer in DC), but I think it’s different when they’re physically not near each other.

    1. You're right that so far as we know, they had no contact all summer, until 5.03. But he must have known at some point that she went straight from him to Dawson, almost without taking a breath, which would've seemed like she got over him super fast. Then that episode is followed by 5.04 with the infamous (stupid) "You guys never really got your chance" line, and after that the next time we really see them together is the dinner party, where she's all awkward about Dawson/Jen. But tells Pacey at the end that she's not jealous, which implies that she's moved forward past her obsession with Dawson. And Pacey hugs her. Then in the next episode they hang out at the bar, and all of our Poey hearts raise in hope, only to be quashed because the show needed Audrey to have storylines and could only think of "what if she dates Pacey?" as a potential plot. (That's what it seems like, anyway.) So then we don't get much more Poey interaction all season apart from their flirting in the Halloween episode (don't tell me they're not flirting the entire time) and the finale, where she's running after Dawson. AGAIN.

      But I digress. I think Pacey is wrong in assuming that Joey got over him super fast, because he wasn't there -- but equally, because he wasn't there, he doesn't know. (And she rebounded so fast onto Dawson that his assumptions make sense, to me at least.)

    2. I think the distance between Pacey and Joey during those three months definitely helped them both move on, and apparently on a healthy way because there seems to be no hard feelings between them, despite the way things ended. And 5.03 does a good job at reuniting them and showing us that they still care about each other and want the other to be happy.

      But then, they just act like they're strangers the whole time and Joey is so indifferent towards Pacey for most of the season. He's dating her roommate and she doesn't even blink? I mean, you can 100% move on from someone and even be fine, I guess, with them dating someone close to you, but that'd still be universally awkward and weird to anyone with human emotions -- especially if we're talking about your first serious long term relationship with someone you fell so intensely for.

      @Kate: Ugh, Joey went after Dawson so fast after Pacey left. I hate that. It's like all of Pacey's fears during their relationship were true -- a giant piece of Joey's heart would always belong to Dawson and the only thing stopping them from being together was Pacey, so she was never 100% into their relationship.

      I don't judge her for being with someone else, girl can kiss whoever she wants. But it's like she turns a switch, you know? The second he leaves, she's all about Dawson. AGAIN.

      I have a lot of conflicting feelings about all of this. On one hand, she's actually very mature regarding Pacey: she accepts his decision, she forgives him for the brutal way he ended things and she even somewhat encourages Audrey to go for him. At the same time, she does all of this with such an indifference towards him that it makes me angry. It's like she isn't even debating any of this, she doesn't think about it, she just doesn't care about Pacey so she's fine with whatever he decides to do. Just very frustrating.

    3. Season 5 makes so little sense that I just write a lot of it off as the writers being crappy. Because nobody with real human emotions would act that way, and that's what really marks the change between seasons. Up until season 5, the characters always acted in a very emotional way - sometimes over-reacting, definitely, but never coming across as ambivalent in the way that they do in season 5. Dawson and Jen date for a significant number of episodes, but when they break up, everything just goes back to the way it was and nobody ever really talks about it ever again. Joey and Dawson sleep together in season 6 and we don't get anyone else's feelings about the fallout from that - how did Pacey feel about it? How did Jen feel about it? Oh for a scene of the two of them talking about it...even a sentence or two. SOMETHING to acknowledge the history between them all, someone to comment that maybe they all need to try and go their separate ways a bit more so they don't end up with Pacey/Jen trying friends with benes again ;) ...that would at least make sense as to why they all have separate storylines in S6!

      Joey has a weird codependent relationship with Dawson, as evidenced by her reluctance to leave him at the end of S3. What I'd have liked to see in S4 is for her to have switched those codependent tendencies onto Pacey, so when he leaves, Joey needs someone to fall back to and she goes back to Dawson. I never watch 4.23 Coda, but if the show had been more aware of how she feels like she always needs a guy in her life to shoulder her emotional burdens, then going back to Dawson might have made more sense. And her personal growth over the course of the show could have led her to the point of 6.22, where she FINALLY chooses herself. That would've been more emotionally satisfying for the audience as an ending if we were aware of Joey's struggle to reach that level of independence.

      "On one hand, she's actually very mature regarding Pacey: she accepts his decision, she forgives him for the brutal way he ended things and she even somewhat encourages Audrey to go for him. At the same time, she does all of this with such an indifference towards him that it makes me angry."

      Yes, exactly. I like her maturity towards him. I just don't like that there seems to be no internal conflict about that for her. Where is the scene where she talks to Jen or Jack about her feelings? About liking both Audrey and Pacey, and thinking they'd be good for each other, and not wanting to stand between them because they broke up and it's not up to her to police Pacey's love life, the way that Dawson stood between her and Pacey and made their relationship so awkward? Within that context, I think it makes (some sort of) sense that she would give them her blessing, because she's trying to be a bigger person. But I wanted to see her come to that decision, deciding that it's morally right even if emotionally it feels wrong. Then feeling awkward around Pacey and Audrey, while trying really hard to pretend she isn't. I also want to know how Pacey felt about her blessing, if he was hurt by her willingness to have him be with Audrey, and how much of the appeal of dating Audrey was a chance to be close to Joey, even if he wouldn't admit that to himself...

      I feel like the first 4 seasons of this show dug down so deep into everyone's emotions and feelings but it was all painted in intricate (sometimes unnecessary) detail, then from season 5 onwards it was just like a basic sketch outline of how people feel, without bothering to ever have anyone REALLY talk about it. And when they did, they didn't talk to the right people. And then they forgot that they'd had that conversation last week and went over it again the next week, or blatantly contradicted it... Ugh. Tom Kapinos took over as showrunner in the last two seasons, and he kind of blew it.

    4. I'm kinda busy right now, so I can't give a long response, but I just wanted to say: Kate, for the love of god, just write a damn fanfiction and correct season 5/6! I'd love to that version you have in your head, because it always seems to be much better than the one we got.

    5. HAHAHA I would if I had time...I have started doing bits of it, but I'm trying to finish writing a novel at the moment so once that's done I'll see if I can find time to do a bit of DC AU stuff. (Pretty sure my version would not include Pacey/Audrey as a relationship at all though, the above comments are just what I wish the show had done, but if I was doing a rewrite, the Paudrey would never have left port.)

    6. "I feel like the first 4 seasons of this show dug down so deep into everyone's emotions and feelings but it was all painted in intricate (sometimes unnecessary) detail, then from season 5 onwards it was just like a basic sketch outline of how people feel, without bothering to ever have anyone REALLY talk about it. And when they did, they didn't talk to the right people. And then they forgot that they'd had that conversation last week and went over it again the next week, or blatantly contradicted it..."

      This is a perfect explanation of the way Seasons 5 and 6 were largely so bad. The inconsistencies and out of character behaviours annoyed me so much.

  8. So first of all, I’m such a nerd, but I legitimately got a little emotional listening to Charles talk about this episode. Everything he said was absolutely flawless, and I guess I’ve just been anticipating what he may think, considering his sometimes not so popular opinion? But Castaways is universally loved.

    It’s such a poignant episode—beautiful writing in a sea of a bad season. Maybe one of the best episodes of YA tv ever. Definitely one of the best in DC. The writers found magic in Joey/Pacey.

    What Charles said about Paceys iconic “wanting to kiss you is like white noise” line was brilliant, and so accurate. It’s such a nice arc/summary to their dynamic over the entire show.

    Also, I know you all talked about Emma bringing out the old Pacey and how that didn’t make sense but maybe that’s the point, you know? She picked up on it, but she couldn’t bring him back around. Joey however, the two have the history and the deeper connection to help Pacey remember his roots and who he is/wants to be. It’s always Joey. This is proof of that—literally (shaving scene) and metaphorically (he really does return to his old character after this episode, for better or for worse).

    Thanks for the great ep! Loved listening!

    1. Hi! I listened to this episode with a huge grin on my face the whole way through. It's an absolute classic and I agree it's a gold standard in YA TV. And it's just so warm and fuzzy - as Joey would say, it's like a good mood pill or something, I just watch this episode and I immediately feel good inside ;)

      You're right that this is the upswing for Pacey. Thank god.

      If there are people out there who don't love Castaways, I don't want to know them.

  9. I'm probably wayyyy over reaching here but does anyone see the dialogue right at the end when Pacey says 'home' and then Joey repeats it, replying 'home' as a callback to Double Date in season one when Joey says 'Home Jeeves' and Pacey says 'Yes Miss Daisy'. Anyone?!

    1. Aww yes! I'm not sure that I'd noticed it but what a great callback :)

  10. The comments are so great on here and I really love reading what everyone has to say. I had a thought though. I was watching Castaways again today and listening to their argument in the break room and their convo after the kiss and I remembered their last conversation in season four at the party. I kind of feel that Pacey and Joey left it open when they broke up. That it wasn't a completely moving on but a 'moving on for now' type thing. Before Pacey and Joey said their goodbyes, Pacey basically admitted he still loved her and basically shared his hopes that someday they could get back together by asking her if she'd sail away with him again while she states he wouldn't have to ask. With that conversation in mind, while two years had past, I feel like Pacey kissing her really shouldn't have felt that out of the blue since their party conversation kind of left it open to a possible reunion somewhere down the line if it worked out that way one day. It at least showed they were both open to it despite how messy and hurtful the end of their relationship was. So what happened in seasons five and six for Joey to say "We broke up, we moved on" well yeah they moved on but left the possibility open! True Pacey didn't want to see Joey when he arrived in Boston but it hadn't been long since they broke up. Surely Joey wouldn't have taken that to mean Pacey didn't mean what he said at the party right? Am I making any sense or is my head cold and these writers making me nutty?

    1. I completely agree. I think Joey moved on, and Pacey was treading water with various other women while he waited to either get back together with Joey, or get over Joey. Whichever happened first. When he calls her "the woman that I love" in that season 4 ending, he was 100% genuine and I think he never stopped feeling that way. You could even read the fact that he encourages her to go after Dawson and Charlie later in season 5 as a form of he knew it wouldn't work out with either of those guys (especially Charlie bc otherwise WHYYYYY) and hoped she would end up coming back to him...? It's a dumb plan but it's possible.

      So here's my question. If Pacey had spent his stockbroker money on a sailboat, and he'd gone to Joey around this time and asked her to go sailing with him, would she?

    2. Exactly! Like how would that have went? Pacey buys new boat and asks single Joey if she'd sail away with him and she's surprised and says no? Well how would their party conversation still have meaning? Lol I love the point you bring up that Pacey encouraged her other relationships because he knew they wouldn't work out especially with Dawson. Not that the writers intended ir this way, but it would make so much sense because of what Pacey said to Dawson when Dawson was acting like a homicidal maniac in season three over Pacey and Joey falling for each other. After their argument on the dock that one night it's pretty clear Pacey does not take Joey and Dawson's relationship seriously. He even says (paraphrasing) that the first sign of trouble they bail which the writers continued to do even up to season six so I can see Pacey in his head giving an eyeroll and saying "Sure you and Dawson take your shot (it won't last anyway)" which makes the actual line "You guys never got your shot" even more dumb coming from Pacey. Also Pacey while drunk rattled on about how tired he was about their weird back and forth flip flop when they were all in jail so it makes even more sense. Your twist is so much better!

    3. I don't think Joey would have gone with Pacey at this point. She's grown as a person. While in theory/idea she wouldn't be against it, but look at it she's doing well at a prestigious school, meeting new people. She's still a humble student that tends bar to earn some money to get by, but she's on here way.

      That's what I think Eddie's appeal is. (Even though they didn't write the build up of the Ed/Jo relationship well). Eddie is as smart as her and a writer, he can challenge her more intellectually which seems to be a big attraction for Joey from S6 into the series finale as far as her relationships go. Which that at least makes more sense than doofy Lotharios like Chad Michael Murray or professors like she was involved with post-Pacey in S5.

      I'm a big Poey person (who isn't) but at this point sailing away feels very 16/17 years old for Joey, and now in S6 I think she's grown to the point where her world out there is bigger than a sailboat. If she's going to blow off her life/responsibilities and run away at this point it should be to fulfill what she's always wanted -- Paris. So in that vein, while the writing gets deservedly bashed at times, I do like where it ended for her and how as growth as an individual.

      Even though Eddie showing up again as an instrument to ruin the Poey again is just dumb. They coulda/shoulda had done better there or at least have made Eddie more formidable and important. Audrey may say he's "one of the great loves in her life" but I don't feel like what we saw on the show backs that up. IMO a show like Gilmore Girls introduced the late season love interest a lot better and at least gave a real history and depth in that relationship compared to Oliver Hudson's use in this show.

    4. Thanks for your insight on Eddie. He was an intellectual equal and that would be appealing to Joey. Maybe they didn’t have the chemistry so we didn’t get invested, and some of the dialogue wasn’t great.

    5. I agree that the intention was that Eddie was her intellectual equal and could have conversations with her about literature etc, that Pacey couldn't or wouldn't, and that appealed to Joey, which as an English major, I completely understand. They just forgot to make Eddie likeable in the meantime... and nothing can compete with the Poey chemistry.

      I don't necessarily mean that if Pacey would ask Joey to run away with him on the boat again, more that they'd just go sailing again on a day trip or something. I think she would do that. (Depending on what her relationship with Eddie was at the time.) I agree that if he'd asked her on a long trip then she'd have said no, but I don't think Pacey would have asked her to leave everything she's worked for and go off on a whim. (Which is actually what Eddie does later and gets rightfully rejected.)

      Logan and Jess each got three seasons on Gilmore Girls so they had time to build that relationship and show us why it worked (or didn't, depending on your opinion). Maybe the writers should have introduced Eddie in season 5, or kept Charlie around for season 6. I guess CMM was heading off to his own show at that point, so maybe that was the original intention that was changed at a later date...who knows.


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