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620 - Catch-22



"Let Katie Holmes wear pants in peace!"

Who could've predicted we would actually kind of be sad to see Hetson go?

From Traci: "I'm not sad to say goodbye to Rich or Sadia, who were both characters that felt poorly developed. I get wanting to write Pacey as this wunderkind of who could excel at any job, but I've just never been a fan of this stock broker stuff. Felt too out of place in the Creek universe we've come to know and love."

Also... any suggestions for our series finale watch party?? :)


Got something to say? Leave it in the comments below, or you can email us at dawsonsspeakpod@gmail.com, call us at 732-98-CREEK, or find us at @dawsonsspeakpod on Twitter and Facebook.

Comments

  1. "Also... any suggestions for our series finale watch party?? :)"

    :sobs:

    although the series finale is one of my fave eps overall and one of the best series finales SO even though I don't want this podcast to end, I can't wait to hear what you both think.

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    1. Finale suggestions - reecord a live commentary as you watch the finale? ;) Not sure if that's logistically possible or if there would be any point (unless it's on video) but I'd love to get Charles' real-time reaction to everything that goes down.

      I emailed Traci ages ago with a suggestion that she said she'd save for the finale, but might as well share it here in case anyone else wants to play - if you could re-write one character, re-cast one character and remove one character from the entire series, who would it be?

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  2. I'm glad you guys talked about the amount of $ Dawson lost. I mean, obviously TV show -- who cares, minor detail -- but they do never really say specifically if it's like $2,000 or $10,000 or how much. Kinda bugged me that Dawson was a PA in Los Angeles, presumably supporting himself, no way he could have been saving on a huge pile of money.

    Anyways, regardless of the amount and realism, one way to avoid it AND more of a gut punch would be to say that $ was what Dawson had from inheritance or life insurance left behind for him by Mitch. That would also give Dawson a better reason to hold anger against Pacey since Pacey would have squandered the last physical connection to his dad.

    I don't like that so much of David/Jack as off-screen but in theory it was a good story. Jack was coming off the fraternity stuff, and he's been co-dependent on Jen for much of this series. Jen falls hard for CJ (which is dumb, but whatev) so Jack feels like he needs to be in a relationship with David, just to be in a relationship and have something, that makes some sense. But they didn't really develop that at all, the show went through the motions of that relationship like Jack apparently did.

    Joey/Eddie, meh. Less said the better. She deserved to be dumped if she thought Eddie was just going to live in Capeside all summer and work some boring job like she suggested. That was a sad development to make Joey all practical, wasn't she always looking for ways off the Cape and to grow her horizons? Not sure why she wouldn't jump at the chance to leave, but oh well, at least Jeddie ends forever.

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    1. Also, funny aside, it occurred to me that Pacey has punched or slept with just about every single person on this show. (Other than Jen, who they almost did, anyways). I guess Jack and Dawson's parents and thankfully Grams are the exception to the rule, but just about everyone else!

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    2. I cannot wait to listen!

      "Anyways, regardless of the amount and realism, one way to avoid it AND more of a gut punch would be to say that $ was what Dawson had from inheritance or life insurance left behind for him by Mitch. That would also give Dawson a better reason to hold anger against Pacey since Pacey would have squandered the last physical connection to his dad."

      ooooh, that's a good point. I guess I never really considered how dawson got the $ - since he was a pa, I figured he didn't have much to give (although I assume he'd give most of what he had, which still isn't a great idea). but it would make total sense for him to donate $ from mitch, and if mitch were still here, I could see him giving $ to pacey....

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    3. Right, because if it's like Dawson's "life savings" (at age 20, while having like 1 job ever) is only $500 or $1,000, it looks bad that Dawson is so upset with Pacey over such a little overall amount of money that big picture wasn't going to make/break a movie project.

      And it's unrealistic that Dawson's "savings" would be a $5,000+ investment where it's an actual setback to lose that amount of money. But the way Dawson reacts it indicates Pacey has blown a lot of money that makes a huge difference, even though it doesn't make a lot of sense that Dawson really should have any meaningful amount of "life savings" at this point.

      I guess though if Pacey squanders Dawson's money from Mitch, maybe that's not something they ever get past and are able to reconcile by the show's conclusion in a nice and tidy manner like they eventually are able to get to. (But I guess that could be left open-ended that Pacey/Dawson aren't friends after 622 but maybe get over it and repair in the 5 years of a time jump to the finale that starts 623).

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    4. Oh I LOVE that idea of Dawson's money coming from Mitch. Especially since we've had a couple of scenes in the past where Mitch has told Pacey that he's not a screw up and encouraged him to believe in himself - it would really hurt for him to have lost Mitch's money. Poor Pace. That would be so painful, and so real, and so much more interesting. Also, it would have allowed them to give an actual figure without worrying too much about how Dawson would've realistically earned it.

      I'm not sure that Pacey and Dawson do actually end 6x22 as friends. Pacey goes out of his way to get Dawson's money back (which implies it's not THAT huge of an amount, actually, maybe a few thousand dollars max) but Dawson still seems kind of on the fence about whether or not he forgives Pacey.

      One thing that is never brought up again or called into question is the fact that Dawson did actually have a lot of money from Mr Brooks, which he spent a sizeable chunk of sending Joey to college. Did she ever pay him back? Is she required to? Not much point demanding it back from her at this point as we know Joey doesn't have much money but it's just something that came to mind.

      David/Jack had so much more potential as a storyline. I appreciate the idea of exploring a co-dependent relationship (although this is also what Joey has been doing the ENTIRE show, so I'm not sure it needs to be rehashed with Jack). But if he was only in the relationship for the sake of being in a relationship, then we really should have seen that. That's something that could have come up in the Lovelines ep (or my version of it that doesn't involve crappy guest stars and onstage bickering) - Jack's question being how do you know whether you're in a relationship just for the sake of it or whether you actually love the person you're with? That's a pretty prescient question for a lot of relationships at this age, and if David heard that, that would give him grounds to confront Jack about it. Jack might say it was just a planned question to give Jen something to talk about on air, but if Jack eventually admitted that it was true, that would give them a reason to break up. (Or he could come to that conclusion on his own and be the one to break up with David.) But I do feel like it's a bit of rewriting history to imply that he's trying to prove that he can be in a gay relationship, given that he did date Tobey in seasons 4/5. It's not like David is his first ever boyfriend.

      I don't think Joey deserved to be dumped - I was fuming at Eddie throughout that scene when he was completely dismissing her points about needing to make some money first. Backpacking isn't super expensive but it's not free, and Joey also needs money to pay her tuition - we already know that her scholarship (which she almost lost) only pays a portion of her fees. Joey is the realist at this point and I appreciated the callback to her summer with Pacey and how the problems were all still there when she got back. Joey is tired of running away from her problems and is finally learning to face up to them. That's part of growing up and she's a lot more mature than Eddie. I just hate how he never seems to care what she wants, and gives her zero space to make her own choices or to do something different from what he's got planned. I can't think of a worse person to go backpacking around Europe with than Mr Pass-Agg who would get into a massive sulk every time you didn't want to do what he wanted to do that day.

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  3. Another great pod! Goodbye stockbroker Pacey, we won't miss you. The world needs more Pacey Witters but far fewer Rich Rinaldis, so turning our beloved Pacey into a clone of Rich was just painful to sit through. I feel bad for him in the next couple of episodes, but I'm glad that he's getting back to his original much more loveable self.

    I'm glad Charles liked my idea for the Lovelines ep, it was such a good opportunity to have the cast really think about and dissect their relationships and their reasons for being in them (or not being in them, in Poey's case) but was completely squandered in favour of nonsensical "humour".

    I still think 7 was quite generous for this episode though. I like the next two more as the characters reconvene in Capeside and start acting like themselves again - Joey is determined, Pacey is charming and Dawson is an entitled douchebag. Memories!

    Also Traci - Dawson tells Pacey in the opening scene for the next episode that he has just maxed out three credit cards on lights, cameras and sound equipment. (So he didn't buy film, but he did max out those cards.)

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  4. Using the films Pacey cites as a reference El Mariachi had a $7,000 budget and Clerks had a $27,000 budget, so I'm guessing if Dawson wanted to pull his money at El Mariachi levels, he probably only invested around $5000 to begin with.

    This episode is painful to watch. Pacey's downfall is so cringe worthy, even though they had been setting it up all season, and we all knew it was coming. When Charles was debating his rating, I found myself chanting 6.5, and then he gave it an 8! But then he fixed it to the right rating! Way to go Charles!

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    1. I just googled and $5000 in 2003 is $7000 in 2020.
      Saying that, if a friend of mine lost $5000 of my money, I'd be pretty upset.
      But I wouldn't invest it in the stock market in the first place.

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  5. Uhm, maybe I'm alone here, but with this podcast getting close to an end, I can't help but wonder what we're all going to do once it's over? Is there a place, maybe a forum of some sort, where we can discuss DC with other fans?

    And gain, maybe I'm totally alone here -- and if so, you guys can just ignore me -- but I would love to have something like a group watch, where we all watch the episodes at the same and simultaneously discuss it. I know we already share a lot of opinions here, but I keep thinking of all the details we forget and that many of us weren't here for the first seasons, and then there's just something about watching it together that makes me feel like watching it for the first time. Maybe this is just me anticipating my abstinence lol (very likely) but if anyone's interested, let me know so we can try it out idk

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    1. I'm in if we can figure out a platform :)

      I've also found another DC podcast called "Dawson's Critique" which is really good too, so that's easing my withdrawals! Both of the podcasters over there have seen the show before, so we don't get Charles' hot takes and guesses on upcoming storylines (sad) but they watched it growing up, so they're comparing their memories of watching it for the first time with their current takes on the show. Really interesting chat, and they genuinely love the show. They've just started season 2 over there, but they don't have a website for leaving comments so I'm limited to interacting via twitter and instagram which doesn't allow for such lengthy discourse as we get into here!

      Some day I will find the time to do my Dawson's Creek "rewrite" - so far I've plotted out season 4 which includes less Dawson/Joey angst, more Pacey/Joey sweetness, more Jack and Jen storylines, PLUS a whole season of Andie!

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    2. Hoping they take a well earned little break and maybe Traci can get Charles to watch Gilmore Girls? Who says no! Ha

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